--- Log opened Thu Feb 09 13:55:27 2006
14:04 <@Koon> ok, let's start
14:05 <@Koon> yes
14:05 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+m] by Koon
14:05 <@SwifT> Koon: I'm here
14:05 <@SwifT> vapier: ^^
14:05 -!- Halcyon [n=halcy0n@pdpc/supporter/active/Halcy0n-gentoo] has joined #gentoo-council
14:07 <@solar> yes
14:07 -!- az [n=ms@gentoo/developer/azarah] has joined #gentoo-council
14:07 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o az] by ChanServ
14:07 <@vapier> so all we've got is GLEP 44
14:07 <@vapier> peeps have read it ?
14:07 <@vapier> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0044.html
14:07 <@solar> genone is not here agan.
14:07 <@Koon> vapier: there is also a clarification of wording for the proxy thing asked by ciaranm, we'll discuss it during Q&A
14:08 <@vapier> no, genone is not here, but i think this glep is pretty straight forward
14:08 <@Koon> I read it some time ago
14:09 <@Koon> It wasn't opposed, I tend to vote yes, does anybody need some explanations from genone to approve it ?
14:09 <@vapier> i'm all for it
14:09 <@agriffis> I've read it and think it looks great.
14:10 <@vapier> to extend the compatibly forever, we could just provide old style digests for the portage package
14:10 <@vapier> then users would `emerge portage --nodeps` and they'd be fine
14:10 <@vapier> but that's a helpful note, doesnt affect acceptability of the GLEP
14:10 <@az> dont have an issue, but they dont mention how long the transition will be ?
14:10 <@az> or i misread it
14:11 <@Koon> "No timeframe for implementation is presented here as it is highly dependent on the completion of each step."
14:11  * Koon writes this one down, could serve him well in the future
14:12 <+g2boojum> az: When talking to the portage team they have said about a year if one wants to minimize user system breakages.  I'd actually prefer a "flag day", myself.
14:12 <@Koon> az: "... a full conversion will take over a year to be completed ..."
14:12  * agriffis is surprised to find himself in the credits
14:12 <@az> well, like vapier said, could just keep the old stuff for portage around
14:12  * agriffis takes all the credit
14:13 <@vapier> seemant / SwifT ?
14:13 <@seemant> I'm here sorry
14:13 <@SwifT> I'm trying to think of something sensible to say that hasn' tbeen said or isn't in the GLEP, but all I can think of is "can't wait"
14:13 <@seemant> yep, basically
14:14 <@SwifT> also, I'm personally in favor of shortening the transition period (< 1 year)... big bang transition :) but that's something that'll be seen later when we're at it
14:15 <@Koon> so... how do we solve this one
14:16 <@Koon> it's OK, but transition time needs to e precised and we prefer it short ?
14:16 <@az> guess that is outside our job
14:16 <@Koon> last time we half-approved a GLEP there was some backslash :)
14:16 <@solar> you make the author show up to these meetings vs trying toi figure this stuff out (perhaps incorrectly on our own)
14:16 <@SwifT> no, it's okay and we're eagerly awaiting the evolution of the work
14:16 <@az> could maybe just not that we would like it to be short and sweet
14:16 <@az> note*
14:16 <@vapier> does timeframe really matter
14:17 <@vapier> GLEP 44: approved, cant wait to see it !
14:17 <@vapier> ?
14:17 <@SwifT> it isn't known yet how the transition period will be, that's something that'll be given later on
14:17 <@solar> vapier: eh?
14:17 <@vapier> solar: was asking, not telling
14:18 <@SwifT> I don't think anyone is against :)
14:18 <@Koon> I vote yes, don't mind the transition period
14:18 <@solar> well I can say right now I have no intentions of voting in favor or against
14:18 <@solar> not without the author being here. I have questions and comments
14:19 <@vapier> that's fine
14:19 <@vapier> new rule: for your GLEP to be approved, you must be present ?
14:19 <@SwifT> it might not be easy for him to get to the meetings; I suppose contacting him through e-mail (probably through mailinglist) is the best
14:19 <@Koon> or a proxy
14:20 <@solar> or a proxy. Somebody really needs to be here on behalf of a given glep
14:20 <@SwifT> err, if a GLEP isn't clear on all subjects, I think it should be covered on the mailinglist; I don't think presence of the author is required (not everyone can be here at 1900UTC)
14:20 <@solar> AUXFILE, EBUILD, DISTFILE (minor detail but that is a waste of space)
14:21 <@vapier> {A,E,D} ? :p
14:21 <@solar> better imo
14:21 <@vapier> along that line, everyone cool with putting this off for a month requesting someone field our questions ?
14:22 <@vapier> solar: better for you to start a thread on the list after that with your questions/etc...
14:22 <@Koon> we should probably have anticipated those...
14:22 <@Koon> and solved them before the meeting. That's the whole point of putting the GLEP on -dev
14:23 <@Koon> but I tend to agree that /now/ holding it off might be the only solution without the author here
14:23 <@Koon> also I'm short in time so I tend to agree with any quick solution
14:24 <@vapier> works for me
14:24 <@vapier> anyone else ?
14:24 <@solar> nod. the 1 year seems a bit extraneous. I like grants idea with a given flag day
14:25 <@az> month maybe two after support is in, and keep old digest/manifest for only portage around
14:25 <@az> and make a point that we should try to cover all q&a on -dev, and try to get the author/proxy here in case there is last minute stuff
14:26 <@Koon> history note: that point was raised during -dev discussion, it's just the author choice to choose long transition rather than flagday
14:27 <@Koon> so everyone agrees... SwifT  ?
14:27 <@az> problem with long transitions is they get swept under the rug
14:27 <@az> anyhow, so we postphone this? now to q&a ?
14:27 <@SwifT> I'm a bit disappointed that it would be stalled; I think that the issues raised are point-of-view issues that depend on the person...
14:28 <@SwifT> but I'm not against postponing it... just hoped that it would be approved
14:28 <@Koon> seemant ?
14:28 <@seemant> flag day is an idea I tend to prefer
14:28 <@seemant> but it would *have* to be hugely publicised
14:29 <@seemant> honestly, I think it's a great idea, and we (gentoo as a whole) should just go towards implementing it
14:29 <@Koon> OK so, we agree with the GLEP but are not sure to agree with the transition period system, this point needs to be precised before the GLEP is fully approved
14:29 <@seemant> we just set a day, spread that day, make a countdown or something, and just go
14:30 <@seemant> Koon: I'd say we all approve of the glep, but just differ on the timelines for items 3, 4, and 5
14:30 <@SwifT> the transition can be discussed/voted upon later on, when the manifest with backwards compatibility is in place
14:30 <@solar> well my only two concerns at this point is the filetype specifier should be 1-3 chars. And that a 1-3 month time frame till completion. I'm not really in favor of having so many checksums (a limit of two would be nice).
14:30 <@solar> 2.5 concerns
14:31 <@Koon> basically, we really need to discuss those options with the author, maybe he has a good rationale for those choices, aznd we need to hear it before slashing
14:32 <@Koon> anyone wants to add something before Q&A ?
14:34 <@az> no
14:35 <@Koon> ok, Q&A
14:35 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-m] by Koon
14:35 <@Koon> ciaranm had the following question
14:35 <@Koon>  approval on the exact wording "A proxy must not be an existing council member, and any single person may not be a proxy for more than one council member at any given meeting." for the changes discussed last month
14:35 <@Koon> sounds ok to me
14:36 <@SwifT> was what I had in mind back then, yes
14:36  * ciaranm doesn't want to update the GLEP until he's sure that everyone is totally ok with the wording
14:36 < ciaranm> there's enough iffy phrasing in the proxy stuff as it is :)
14:38 < ciaranm> mmmm, guess i'll take that as a yes then
14:38 <@Koon> that's two yes, in fact
14:38 <@SwifT> overwhelming majority :)
14:39  * ciaranm idly wonders who all is here
14:39  * frilled|home raises a hand
14:39 <@Koon> ciaranm: those are mostly bots, programmed in java and communicating in XML, that explains the lag
14:39 < ciaranm> no bittorrent? :(
14:40 <@Koon> bittorrent is only used to download the GLEP
14:40 <@SwifT> no, it's SOAP, read by an articifial voice over the Skype network
14:40 <@Koon> it's then fed to an expert system that makes up silly questions
14:41 < ciaranm> ok, i have to go eat. feel free to prod me with any wording changes. otherwise i'm assuming silence means "sure, whatever"
14:41 <@SwifT>  
14:41 <@Koon> OK, anyone has an other question for the sleeping council members ?
14:41 < frilled|home> SwifT: let me know if I can be of any help,ok?
14:42 <@SwifT> frilled|home: mind mailing me? Just in case I need to contact you, it'be good to have tyour e-mail... or are you on the gentoo-pr@ mailinglist?
14:42 <@az> although i guess this is mostly targetted at me, i missed the last discussion so dont see any use of making comments.
14:42 < frilled|home> SwifT: no, but I am on #gentoo-security as much as I am only
14:42 < frilled|home> online :D
14:43 <@Koon> no more questions, let's call it a day.
14:43 <@SwifT> frilled|home: okay, I'll try to remember your nickname then :)
14:43 -!- Koon changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Meeting was Feb 9 at 1900 UTC (1400 EST)
14:43 <@agriffis> ciaranm: fwiw, I was distracted, but I think that wording change is fine.
14:44 <@Koon> anyone with Power-LOG[tm] can post the thing to CVS ?
14:44  * Koon is log-impaired
14:44 <@agriffis> regarding the Manifest2 change, I'd personally prefer to see a graceful and gradual transition rather than a flag day, but that's mostly because sudden changes usually break one way or another, then it's a fire.
14:44 <@agriffis> Koon: I'll post it to cvs, sure
14:45 <@Koon> for the record, all members were somewhat-here
14:45 <@agriffis> yep
14:45 < frilled|home> Koon: nice wording :D
14:45  * Koon goes back to RL
14:46 -!- Koon [n=koon@gentoo/developer/Koon] has left #gentoo-council ["Leaving"]
14:46 <@solar> agriffis: I can see that but I'd hope it personally not be dragged out past 3 months