**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 12 13:00:31 2007
Jul 12 13:00:31 *	kingtaco|work sets mode +m #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:00:34 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to spb
Jul 12 13:00:46 wolf31o2	ok... I'm here and I've got (at most) 1 hour before a meeting here
Jul 12 13:01:10 kingtaco|work	I've work to do today too
Jul 12 13:01:16 kingtaco|work	no 6 hour long meetings
Jul 12 13:01:40 kingtaco|work	erm
Jul 12 13:01:44 kingtaco|work	we're missing some people
Jul 12 13:02:19 wolf31o2	yeah
Jul 12 13:02:19 kingtaco|work	SpanKY, vapier: ping
Jul 12 13:03:02 robbat2	ok, I _just_ got the summary of the previous meeting completed
Jul 12 13:03:34 *	nightmorph (n=nightmor@gentoo/developer/nightmorph) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:03:45 wolf31o2	do we even have an agenda this meeting?
Jul 12 13:03:57 wolf31o2	nobody sent anything out, so I'm not really even sure what we're discussing
Jul 12 13:04:14 kingtaco|work	proctor shit from last month
Jul 12 13:04:20 kingtaco|work	ML shit from last month
Jul 12 13:04:30 robbat2	that was dependant on musikc's email
Jul 12 13:04:36 robbat2	which I didn't see go out at all
Jul 12 13:04:43 kingtaco|work	we could talk about the pms/eapi stuff, but that seems pointless
Jul 12 13:04:51 robbat2	there's nothing there either
Jul 12 13:04:57 wolf31o2	right
Jul 12 13:05:14 robbat2	spb, pingy
Jul 12 13:05:18 spb	hi
Jul 12 13:05:34 robbat2	do you have anything to bring up while you are standing in for Kugelfang?
Jul 12 13:05:42 spb	not that i can think of
Jul 12 13:05:58 *	robbat2 gives voice to musikc
Jul 12 13:06:26 *	Uber (n=uberlord@gentoo/developer/UberLord) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:06:27 *	ChanServ gives channel operator status to Uber
Jul 12 13:06:34 Uber	hi
Jul 12 13:06:47 robbat2	hi Uber
Jul 12 13:06:52 robbat2	do you have any council business to bring up?
Jul 12 13:06:54 spb	you're late grumble grumble
Jul 12 13:06:59 robbat2	else this is looking like a very short meeting
Jul 12 13:07:16 Uber	no and sorry. rl stuff :/
Jul 12 13:07:20 spb	it is rather
Jul 12 13:07:47 robbat2	yeah, it seems a lot of folks hit RL keeping them busy
Jul 12 13:08:11 robbat2	that's eaten a lot of my time this last month, my commit stats on CIA are dismal
Jul 12 13:08:35 spb	heh, try mine
Jul 12 13:08:37 Uber	I'm doing a load of out of normal hours stuff atm :/
Jul 12 13:08:57 Uber	the curse of a month long honeymoon I guess!
Jul 12 13:09:10 spb	slacker
Jul 12 13:09:34 Uber	pot meet kettle :P
Jul 12 13:09:43 wolf31o2	1 messages so far this month, 30 messages last month
Jul 12 13:09:46 wolf31o2	wow... I'm slack
Jul 12 13:10:11 robbat2	ok, so open floor just to see if anybody else has anything?
Jul 12 13:10:18 spb	go for it
Jul 12 13:10:34 musikc	wrt the proctors, the only thing i can speak on first hand is that a proposal was not put together and agreed upon by the remaining five members. from what i have heard the proctors had issues with various members being absorbed by real life or conflicts in timing. bottom line, the only proposal document has not been agreed upon by all existing members.
Jul 12 13:10:38 Uber	well, all my projects are ticking along nicely :)
Jul 12 13:10:45 *	robbat2 sets mode -m #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:10:51 kingtaco|work	I think the proctor business is a waste of time
Jul 12 13:11:19 robbat2	could somebody please send a email proposing the -project list with moderation stuff to the -dev ML?
Jul 12 13:11:26 musikc	im not sure if any of them are present :-|
Jul 12 13:11:28 robbat2	anybody else out there got anything they want to raise?
Jul 12 13:11:31 spb	proctors aren't likely to go anywhere without starting from scratch imo
Jul 12 13:11:43 Uber	kingtaco|work: heh, we have someone doing a talk on that on saturday - The Proctors
Jul 12 13:11:51 kingtaco|work	Uber, huh?
Jul 12 13:11:59 wolf31o2	at GUK07
Jul 12 13:12:02 Uber	at gentoo uk meeting
Jul 12 13:12:04 spb	gentoo-uk event type thing on saturday
Jul 12 13:12:10 *	Uber nods
Jul 12 13:12:12 spb	neddyseagoon is talking about them apparently
Jul 12 13:12:12 kingtaco|work	I'd love to see what they claim they do
Jul 12 13:12:28 kingtaco|work	frankly, they have failed
Jul 12 13:12:33 wolf31o2	ok... so... open floor?
Jul 12 13:12:33 kingtaco|work	the concept is flawed
Jul 12 13:12:45 kingtaco|work	wolf31o2, you're too late, it's already there
Jul 12 13:12:45 fmccor	I've worked with the protcors for a month.  I highly reccomd them without any doubt.
Jul 12 13:12:47 Uber	yeah, open floor. brb, 15 mins
Jul 12 13:12:48 musikc	will a decision be made about the proctors today?
Jul 12 13:13:02 Philantrop	I'm probably rather well known for agreeing that proctors are not needed. They *do* have some better ideas this time, I think. The pressure put on them to produce "something" which they didn't know about exactly probably prevented them to come up with a coherent document.
Jul 12 13:13:31 wolf31o2	musikc: the meeting is essentially over... we didn't have anything to discuss
Jul 12 13:13:47 kingtaco|work	wolf31o2, not true, just pointless to discuss anything
Jul 12 13:13:53 robbat2	anybody got any status notes they want to drop in?
Jul 12 13:13:57 wolf31o2	whatever
Jul 12 13:13:58 wolf31o2	same diff
Jul 12 13:14:09 wolf31o2	robbat2: I think my CIA stats speak well enough on my status notes
Jul 12 13:14:10 wolf31o2	heh
Jul 12 13:14:19 wolf31o2	1 commit this month
Jul 12 13:14:29 robbat2	jaervosz, vapier: last chance before you get marked AWOL
Jul 12 13:14:41 Philantrop	musikc: They mailed you their notes for forwarding to the council, didn't they?
Jul 12 13:15:02 robbat2	wolf31o2, the last several months for me were: 93, 82, 17, 9
Jul 12 13:15:07 *	Betelgeuse (n=betelgeu@gentoo/developer/Betelgeuse) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:15:13 nightmorph	robbat2: isn't this the last month for the current council anyway?
Jul 12 13:15:18 wolf31o2	robbat2: ouch...
Jul 12 13:15:24 wolf31o2	no, next meeting is the last one
Jul 12 13:15:27 robbat2	nightmorph, no, I think we have one more
Jul 12 13:15:28 nightmorph	ah, k
Jul 12 13:15:32 robbat2	since that is during the voting period
Jul 12 13:15:32 *	steev64 (n=steev@gentoo/developer/steev) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:15:43 musikc	fmccor mailed me a bunch of documents, not a coherent proposal. in conversation with neddy, he said the documents were out of date so together we worked on a new one but the other members have not commented on it so its only approved by one member.
Jul 12 13:15:57 wolf31o2	well, if anyone needs me, ping me... I'm off
Jul 12 13:15:59 nightmorph	wrt the proctors, i hear some negative sentiment, but no concrete reasons why they are bad/ineffective, especially considering it was the current council that created them in the first place
Jul 12 13:16:11 *	Ingmar^ (n=ingmar@d51A487D7.access.telenet.be) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:16:30 nightmorph	anyone else have any counterproposals for something newer/better than the proctors?
Jul 12 13:16:40 robbat2	kingtaco|work, can you put together the -project + moderation email when you get home and send it to the -dev list?
Jul 12 13:16:42 wolf31o2	yes, and it was brought up last month
Jul 12 13:16:46 robbat2	nightmorph, the -project + moderation stuff
Jul 12 13:16:53 nightmorph	i don't recall that from last month's logs, sorry
Jul 12 13:16:58 kingtaco|work	vote: cancel this proctor nonsense
Jul 12 13:17:12 robbat2	kingtaco|work, just leave it to die quietly
Jul 12 13:17:28 musikc	nightmorph: if the proctor project is revoked, the mailing list idea is a good start, and any proctor members are welcome to talk to devrel regarding conflict resolution if they are interested.
Jul 12 13:17:29 robbat2	see if the -project+moderation has more take up
Jul 12 13:17:48 kingtaco|work	robbat2, do me a favor and pull those htpasswds then
Jul 12 13:18:14 musikc	seriously council, can you guys decide one way or the other for the proctors. its only fair to resolve the matter than keep them wondering if it'll be just revoked later.
Jul 12 13:18:23 wolf31o2	ok... fine...
Jul 12 13:18:27 Philantrop	Let the proctors stuff "die quietly" would rather unfair. You should really decide.
Jul 12 13:18:34 fmccor	proctors are doing fine.
Jul 12 13:18:36 wolf31o2	I vote the project is dropped
Jul 12 13:18:40 nightmorph	at least before neddyseagoon give his presentation
Jul 12 13:18:44 kingtaco|work	I vote to drop it
Jul 12 13:18:46 *	wolf31o2 sets mode +m #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:18:56 wolf31o2	if we're back to voting, we don't need input from non-council
Jul 12 13:19:09 wolf31o2	ok... so are we voting?
Jul 12 13:19:12 robbat2	Uber, vapier, spb?
Jul 12 13:19:22 spb	re proctors?
Jul 12 13:19:30 kingtaco|work	yes\
Jul 12 13:19:32 wolf31o2	correct... disbanding the project entirely
Jul 12 13:19:33 spb	either drop it or start over
Jul 12 13:19:40 kingtaco|work	that's not your choice
Jul 12 13:19:46 spb	so as far as its current incarnation is concerned, disband it
Jul 12 13:19:54 robbat2	for me, conditional yes, to be replaced by the -project + moderation stuff
Jul 12 13:20:18 kingtaco|work	you really can't place a condition on your vote
Jul 12 13:20:25 wolf31o2	yeah, it's yes or no
Jul 12 13:20:26 wolf31o2	heh
Jul 12 13:20:45 robbat2	fine, yes, but somebody DOES still need to send that -project proposal stuff to -dev
Jul 12 13:20:51 spb	rephrase it then as "yes, on the understanding that the other stuff is being done"
Jul 12 13:21:14 robbat2	Uber, SpanKY: we need one of you guys
Jul 12 13:21:30 wolf31o2	not anymore, we don't
Jul 12 13:21:40 wolf31o2	spb is filling in for danny so we've got 4/7 voted yes
Jul 12 13:22:01 wolf31o2	or do we need 5/7 for the vote itself?
Jul 12 13:22:04 *	beandog (n=sdibb@gentoo/developer/beandog) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:22:12 spb	simple majority, no?
Jul 12 13:22:34 wolf31o2	true
Jul 12 13:23:02 robbat2	"Council decisions are by majority vote of those who show up (or their proxies)."
Jul 12 13:23:15 wolf31o2	k
Jul 12 13:23:18 robbat2	we have 5 attending, and 4/5 said yes
Jul 12 13:23:22 wolf31o2	then we're good...
Jul 12 13:23:22 robbat2	so I guess it's solid
Jul 12 13:24:39 kingtaco|work	robbat2, email sent
Jul 12 13:24:43 kingtaco|work	we vote next month
Jul 12 13:24:52 robbat2	ok
Jul 12 13:24:59 robbat2	open floor again
Jul 12 13:25:03 wolf31o2	so are we done?
Jul 12 13:25:03 *	robbat2 sets mode -m #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:25:06 robbat2	i think so
Jul 12 13:25:18 fmccor	you suck.
Jul 12 13:25:36 kingtaco|work	thanks
Jul 12 13:25:39 Philantrop	kingtaco|work: I may be dumb but what are you going to vote about next month? :)
Jul 12 13:25:41 steev64	seconded?
Jul 12 13:25:44 fmccor	proctors are fine.
Jul 12 13:25:50 kingtaco|work	Philantrop, see -dev email
Jul 12 13:25:55 kingtaco|work	about changes to the list
Jul 12 13:26:10 Philantrop	kingtaco|work: Ah, ok, thanks.
Jul 12 13:26:16 wolf31o2	fmccor: no, they're disbanded... ;]
Jul 12 13:26:24 steev64	huge surprise there
Jul 12 13:27:09 fmccor	wolf31o2,  If comment, I suck, too.
Jul 12 13:27:22 Philantrop	fmccor: Well, I'm not too pleased about the way the notes were handled. Neddy should probably have handed them on himself. I think they finally started to show some constructive progress. But that's over now, I guess.
Jul 12 13:27:57 musikc	Philantrop:  you may wish to speak with Neddy. when we spoke yesterday he referred to the notes as having out of date and inaccurate information.
Jul 12 13:28:20 Philantrop	musikc: I will.
Jul 12 13:28:43 blackace	ah, cool, disbanded, you guys try moderating thousands of asshats, or making a council meeting after pulling an all-nighter moderating IRC and working a real job that requires you to work during another timezone's work day
Jul 12 13:28:48 fmccor	Philantrop, you have now idea how hard we have been working.
Jul 12 13:29:11 steev64	had
Jul 12 13:29:11 Philantrop	fmccor: That was not really directed at you or the proctors. :)
Jul 12 13:29:19 tsunam	I take it I missed the meeting?
Jul 12 13:29:24 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: i think i'm just the slightest bit confused by your email. proposal is that -dev is closed to everyone but an @gentoo email, right? then why would "any dev could moderate a non-dev post" if non-devs can't post to it in the first place?
Jul 12 13:29:25 blackace	tsunam: yeah
Jul 12 13:29:31 tsunam	well that was short
Jul 12 13:29:35 musikc	tsunam: yes, 13:00 our time
Jul 12 13:29:39 tsunam	well yes
Jul 12 13:29:48 tsunam	I knew it was 1300 but its 13:30
Jul 12 13:29:51 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: maybe i'm just reading it wrong
Jul 12 13:29:52 tsunam	figured it'd run that long ~_~
Jul 12 13:29:53 robbat2	past meetings tending to be getting into the 90 minute length
Jul 12 13:29:53 *	blackace notes normal people have to work at 13:00
Jul 12 13:30:29 tsunam	and from the sounds of what I see..protors are poof
Jul 12 13:30:35 Uber	back
Jul 12 13:30:35 kingtaco|work	nightmorph, everyone can sub and read
Jul 12 13:30:35 robbat2	blackace, the time was a collective agreement by the council as to when all of them are able to attend it
Jul 12 13:30:37 steev64	this council knows what they want, and they get it done
Jul 12 13:30:47 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: k...
Jul 12 13:31:00 blackace	robbat2: good for them, do they plan to do anything about -dev?
Jul 12 13:31:02 tsunam	steev64: not really, they've backed down when people complained :-P
Jul 12 13:31:03 Philantrop	wolf31o2: On a much less problematic :) subject: Any ETA for the next GWN?
Jul 12 13:31:06 *	Uber reads up
Jul 12 13:31:14 kingtaco|work	nightmorph, any dev who's not been moderated for shitty stuff in the past can choose to moderate
Jul 12 13:31:29 robbat2	blackace, you mean the #-dev channel? 
Jul 12 13:31:30 blackace	robbat2: and I mean personally
Jul 12 13:31:30 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: you mean, allow a non-dev not just +r, but +rw?
Jul 12 13:31:32 steev64	wouldn't that currently be nobody since moderation hasn't ahppened yet?
Jul 12 13:31:39 musikc	Philantrop: we're planning on releasing again starting 7/16 (this coming monday)
Jul 12 13:31:40 blackace	robbat2: I mean #gentoo-dev and the -dev ML
Jul 12 13:31:44 TFKyle	nightmorph: I think it's pretty much the same as discussed in last months council meeting, where devs can post unmoderated, but non-devs can post too if a dev lets the post in
Jul 12 13:31:48 fmccor	Philantrop, I started out hating the whole idea.  Then I met the proctors, and talked with them.
Jul 12 13:31:49 kingtaco|work	nightmorph, no, typical ML moderation
Jul 12 13:31:52 TFKyle	(could be wrong though)
Jul 12 13:32:04 blackace	robbat2: not, find something they can shovel off to infra, because we all know how effective that is
Jul 12 13:32:05 Philantrop	musikc: Ah, thanks. Then back to the regular schedule?
Jul 12 13:32:11 tsunam	here's the simple question. Who enforces the coc?
Jul 12 13:32:11 kingtaco|work	it is exactly what I said last month
Jul 12 13:32:12 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: i guess i just haven't ever really seen ML moderation of any sort
Jul 12 13:32:20 musikc	Philantrop: thats the plan
Jul 12 13:32:32 nightmorph	i must just be translating your message into my own special english so that it makes no sense only to me, kingtaco|work :)
Jul 12 13:32:42 kingtaco|work	tsunam, devrel does
Jul 12 13:32:49 TFKyle	(I agree though, the post is a bit ambiguous about that)
Jul 12 13:32:53 fmccor	Now, what about Roy's ppresentation?
Jul 12 13:32:56 tsunam	kingtaco|work: k good enough for me
Jul 12 13:32:57 blackace	haha
Jul 12 13:32:59 blackace	hahahahaha
Jul 12 13:33:10 nightmorph	fmccor: someone prolly better mention today's outcome to him pretty quick
Jul 12 13:33:23 blackace	hfwt folks
Jul 12 13:33:35 nightmorph	hfwt?
Jul 12 13:33:39 nightmorph	oh. "have fun with that"?
Jul 12 13:33:39 Philantrop	fmccor: I didn't like the idea, I didn't like the first active *public* attempts but the "work less in public" concept (or what I glimpsed about it) looked much better to me. I think that might have worked.
Jul 12 13:33:49 robbat2	blackace, i'm sorry, you just moved from complaining about everybody having different times on #-dev + -dev ML, to infra not seeming to get stuff done?
Jul 12 13:33:51 kingtaco|work	fmccor, I don't see how it changes anything.  further, if they come up with something they can bring it to the next council
Jul 12 13:33:51 Uber	for the record i vote the proctors dropped too in their current form
Jul 12 13:34:00 fmccor	He's scheduled, I think.
Jul 12 13:34:12 wolf31o2	robbat2: he's just complaining... period... heh
Jul 12 13:34:32 tsunam	Basically, yes there was an overreaction in public due to complaints that proctors were doing nothing. Instead of explaining what was actually occuring
Jul 12 13:34:36 tsunam	simple as that
Jul 12 13:34:53 steev64	tsunam: and vice versa
Jul 12 13:35:07 blackace	robbat2: no, I complained about the unrealistic meeting time, and now I want to know what the council is going to DO seeing as they've disbanded the only group of people willing to do the dirty work.
Jul 12 13:35:08 steev64	there were complaints that the proctors were doing too much
Jul 12 13:35:09 tsunam	steev64: yes, there were problems on all sides
Jul 12 13:35:09 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: i'll take your word for it. just...the first time what you're talking about happens on the list, nudge me so that i'm aware of it and can study it while it's happening :)
Jul 12 13:35:11 *	zmedico (n=zmedico@ip68-4-152-120.oc.oc.cox.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 13:35:12 fmccor	wolf31o2, you have no idea what I'm about.
Jul 12 13:35:55 wolf31o2	fmccor: who was talking about you?
Jul 12 13:36:08 robbat2	blackace, all previous councils have come up with a meeting time that works for them as the council, because they NEED to attend, otherwise they are booted from said council
Jul 12 13:36:35 robbat2	for doing something now, that's the email to -dev about -project+moderation, which was discussed in extreme depth in the last council meeting
Jul 12 13:36:37 musikc	fmccor: wolf was referring to blackace if you scroll back
Jul 12 13:36:59 wolf31o2	and was joking... note the "heh"
Jul 12 13:37:14 blackace	wolf31o2: I've met you, you don't joke very much :P
Jul 12 13:37:20 nightmorph	zing!
Jul 12 13:37:30 tsunam	steev64: I never heard of doing too much personally. All I can say is that personally when I acted I was thanked by those I told to behave. As a group the proctors failed. However as long as the idea that was the aim continues that is the most important thing
Jul 12 13:37:34 blackace	nightmorph: hey now, no batman sound effects
Jul 12 13:37:37 wolf31o2	blackace: you'd be surprised... all my friends back east keep telling me how chill I am now...
Jul 12 13:38:07 wolf31o2	I'm sure it has pretty much everything to do with the change in employment
Jul 12 13:38:09 nightmorph	blackace: i've got a *biff* for you the next time i see you in #gentoo
Jul 12 13:38:18 steev64	tsunam: *shrug* since you suggested i just killfile, its been pretty good and relaxing on my end
Jul 12 13:38:26 blackace	wolf31o2: really that much better huh?
Jul 12 13:38:31 nightmorph	tsunam: how many proctors were left though before today?
Jul 12 13:38:35 musikc	blackace: you have no idea
Jul 12 13:38:37 wolf31o2	blackace: night and day
Jul 12 13:38:40 musikc	heh
Jul 12 13:38:41 blackace	cool
Jul 12 13:38:43 tsunam	nightmorph: 4-5
Jul 12 13:39:03 wolf31o2	anyway...
Jul 12 13:39:11 *	wolf31o2 is out... if you need me, ping me
Jul 12 13:39:11 tsunam	what's done is done
Jul 12 13:39:16 robbat2	i need to go as well
Jul 12 13:39:20 musikc	nightmorph: neddy, marienz, blackace, mark_alec and tsumam was the info i had
Jul 12 13:39:21 tsunam	simple as that
Jul 12 13:39:26 tsunam	the council has make its decision
Jul 12 13:39:44 tsunam	we elected these people to guide the direction of gentoo..and need to believe in them to make the right choices
Jul 12 13:39:49 tsunam	as we did elect them
Jul 12 13:40:02 tsunam	something that they've not really gotten much of from the developers as a whole
Jul 12 13:40:13 Philantrop	tsunam: We do not need to believe in them. We do have to respect their decisions, though.
Jul 12 13:40:15 *	blackace looks at tsunam 
Jul 12 13:40:32 musikc	well again, tsunam and blackace, the dark side... errr devrel would be interested in talking to you guys if you're interested
Jul 12 13:40:35 TFKyle	so is -project going to be anything goes or?
Jul 12 13:40:40 solar	respect is earned.. never a given
Jul 12 13:40:46 tsunam	yes blackace I know what you're thinking yet again. I'm sure you'll come poke me about it later
Jul 12 13:41:03 nightmorph	musikc: thanks
Jul 12 13:41:05 tsunam	solar has a point there
Jul 12 13:41:07 kingtaco|work	solar, if you don't respect the council then you should call for a new one to be elected
Jul 12 13:41:11 kingtaco|work	it's that simple
Jul 12 13:41:15 Philantrop	solar: Respect for people, yes. Respect for their decisions doesn't mean we can't critisize them, though.
Jul 12 13:41:16 kingtaco|work	all of you
Jul 12 13:41:29 tsunam	Philantrop: constructively
Jul 12 13:41:31 kingtaco|work	your critism has been unfounded and misplaced
Jul 12 13:41:32 solar	kingtaco|laptop: I'm content with this council :p
Jul 12 13:41:41 Philantrop	tsunam: Yes, I meant that. :-)
Jul 12 13:41:49 spb	'respect' has several different meanings
Jul 12 13:41:53 nightmorph	kingtaco|work: i might have done that a few months ago, but it's too late now. besides, how do votes of no confidence work? i mean, can it be selective, or does it have to be all or nothing?
Jul 12 13:41:54 blackace	kingtaco|work: as far as I'm concerned, the council is guilty of same
Jul 12 13:41:55 kingtaco|work	you crippled the same people you voted in
Jul 12 13:41:58 nightmorph	i'm curious about that
Jul 12 13:42:03 blackace	yup, same
Jul 12 13:42:12 spb	some of them have to be earned otherwise they're worthless, and some should be present almost unconditionally
Jul 12 13:42:39 kingtaco|work	nightmorph, as I explained many months ago, if it ever got to the point where a vote of no confidence had to be called, the current council couldn't make those rules because noone would follow them
Jul 12 13:42:41 kingtaco|work	it's a coup
Jul 12 13:43:00 nightmorph	hmm
Jul 12 13:43:17 Philantrop	spb: Indeed. A minimum of respect is earned simply by being a human being, IMHO. (Let's not discuss animal rights now, though. :) )
Jul 12 13:43:23 robbat2	the most that they could do is collectively not show up for the meeting
Jul 12 13:43:30 nightmorph	well, it's the end of the line for the current government either way, after one more meeting i guess
Jul 12 13:43:48 robbat2	and it seems that nearly all of us aren't sticking around for the new council
Jul 12 13:43:58 nightmorph	maybe 1 year is too long?
Jul 12 13:44:04 nightmorph	what a bout a 6-month or 9-month term?
Jul 12 13:44:08 spb	Philantrop: a minimum of courtesy, perhaps
Jul 12 13:44:12 nightmorph	that way RL stuff maybe won't interfere so much
Jul 12 13:44:26 robbat2	no, it's just long enough to get people annoyed with you so they don't vote for you as an incumbent
Jul 12 13:44:27 nightmorph	people have kids, move, die, etc. all that tends to interfere with gentoo duties
Jul 12 13:44:32 nightmorph	aww :/
Jul 12 13:44:32 Philantrop	spb: Ok, I think we can agree on that. :-)
Jul 12 13:44:51 wolf31o2	nightmorph: I don't think the term is the problem so much as general developer backlash on every decision making it undesirable to decide to serve the community in this fashion ever again
Jul 12 13:45:04 musikc	robbat2: or they get burned out and just dont want to do it again
Jul 12 13:45:09 Philantrop	nightmorph: Personally, I think the one year term is fine. It's needed for a somewhat stable course.
Jul 12 13:45:16 wolf31o2	agreed
Jul 12 13:45:17 nightmorph	wolf31o2: that's very possible. but 1 year might serve up too many repeated incidents like that for a given person's plate
Jul 12 13:45:18 robbat2	Philantrop, ok, i'm sorry we lead you guys on. From the last meeting it looked like you were making progress with musikc, but there's been no movement since then
Jul 12 13:45:52 wolf31o2	nightmorph: I guess... I just got tired of having this big bullseye on my back...
Jul 12 13:45:54 nightmorph	i'm just pointing out that if the job burns everyone out that much, perhaps it can be somewhat mitigated by shorter terms
Jul 12 13:46:07 tsunam	wolf31o2: you as well just do too much
Jul 12 13:46:34 musikc	nightmorph: or lets go utopia on this and say wouldnt it be nice if the developer pool didnt backlash the council for every decision they were elected to make
Jul 12 13:46:36 wolf31o2	nightmorph: I think the problem is the lack of courtesy from the developer pool coupled with the lack of visible respect for the council, its members, and its decisions...
Jul 12 13:46:45 Philantrop	robbat2: I wasn't a proctor. :-) Personally, I think they made some progress but this issue has been decided and while I'm not convinced it was the right time for it, I can accept it.
Jul 12 13:46:48 nightmorph	wolf31o2: that reminds me. in your declining answer to your nomination email, you said you won't be doing anything resembling a leadership position at gentoo -- i wasn't clear on whether or not that extends to your stuff as releng head?
Jul 12 13:46:56 wolf31o2	being constantly told how little you're doing, how much you suck, and how every decision you make is "wrong" is enough to demotivate anyone
Jul 12 13:47:18 wolf31o2	nightmorph: releng doesn't lead gentoo
Jul 12 13:47:27 steev64	or you could not be a quitter, and prove them wrong :-P
Jul 12 13:47:48 nightmorph	wolf31o2: well, i wasn't clear on how you were defining leadership, that's all
Jul 12 13:47:58 wolf31o2	nightmorph: council/trustees
Jul 12 13:48:01 nightmorph	k
Jul 12 13:48:06 Philantrop	wolf31o2: That comes with any exposed "job" like the council's. One can either deal with it or not. If not, then the decision not to re-run is obviously good.
Jul 12 13:48:20 robbat2	steev64, I really look forward to not being in council, i won't quit while i'm there, as I am not a quitter, but i'm not chosing to fight that battle again, when I can put my resources to better use
Jul 12 13:48:32 robbat2	my work with infra and the tree has suffered since I've been doing council stuff
Jul 12 13:48:42 nightmorph	that reminds me. how much does council have to do council work outside of the monthly meetings?
Jul 12 13:48:46 robbat2	and that was quite frankly a lot more enjoyable
Jul 12 13:48:48 nightmorph	i'm wondering about time commitments
Jul 12 13:48:53 wolf31o2	Philantrop: I think it comes from the general lack of professionalism, courtesy, and real world experience of the majority of our developer pool
Jul 12 13:49:17 wolf31o2	nightmorph: during the CoC thing, Mike (KingTaco) and myself (at least) spent an entire work week doing Gentoo things
Jul 12 13:49:21 Uber	in other words a bunch of punks
Jul 12 13:49:24 wolf31o2	I missed out on *any* paid work that week
Jul 12 13:49:25 Uber	sorry - kids
Jul 12 13:49:37 kingtaco|work	yes, I wasted a week on that shit
Jul 12 13:49:50 Philantrop	wolf31o2: Yes, that is a valid critisism, IMHO.
Jul 12 13:49:51 musikc	Philantrop: it would be nice to see developers support council, as the developers did pick their council members one might hope it wasnt based on a popularity contest
Jul 12 13:49:52 nightmorph	i missed some too, as i was the one who had to guidexmlify the thing with no notice :)
Jul 12 13:49:55 nightmorph	took a few hours
Jul 12 13:49:59 wolf31o2	Uber: for the most part... though I have met many young developers who possessed those skills... so it isn't the age so much as the outlook
Jul 12 13:50:16 Uber	wolf31o2: true - dsd is a good example of that :)
Jul 12 13:50:23 wolf31o2	yes
Jul 12 13:50:44 robbat2	nightmorph, as an average during my time in council, i'd say that you should budget 2 hours/week, and be prepared to burn that entire annual budget in one week.
Jul 12 13:50:53 nightmorph	hmm
Jul 12 13:50:56 nightmorph	that much, eh
Jul 12 13:50:58 Philantrop	musikc: I support people when I think their cause is just and I won't if I think it's not. It's as simple as that.
Jul 12 13:51:06 steev64	musikc: not all have though - some didn't have the opportunity to vote (based on age of developer status)
Jul 12 13:51:45 Betelgeuse	steev64: isn't it for trustees only that you must be 6 months old?
Jul 12 13:52:08 steev64	Betelgeuse: i thought it was for trustees, council and for running
Jul 12 13:52:24 musikc	Philantrop: no person will agree 100% with another person all of the time, thats understood. but the backlash ive seen over the last few years personally appears to be something else entirely
Jul 12 13:52:50 robbat2	i have to go for some work stuff and other meetings now. once my term in council is over after next month, there's an email i've got to write as a summary of being in council
Jul 12 13:52:59 musikc	steev64: im not sure tbh, i didnt think so
Jul 12 13:53:07 nightmorph	next question to current council members: when is transparency desirable and when is it not?
Jul 12 13:53:21 nightmorph	i'm ticking off a list of stuff i've always wanted to know about the council
Jul 12 13:53:24 wolf31o2	musikc: it seems more like people being pricks just because they can and they know nothing will happen to them
Jul 12 13:53:25 nightmorph	time crunch was the first :)
Jul 12 13:53:33 Philantrop	musikc: Yes, to some extent it's undoubtedly simply challenging any authority, total opposition, etc.
Jul 12 13:53:52 wolf31o2	nightmorph: we try to do everything as transparently as possible... we've had exactly one private discussion, and that was the CoC stuff
Jul 12 13:54:09 *	kingtaco|work (n=kingtaco@gentoo/developer/kingtaco) has left #gentoo-council ("eat me")
Jul 12 13:54:12 Uber	even some wanted that to be a public discussion iirc
Jul 12 13:54:29 robbat2	and we suspect that leaked anyway
Jul 12 13:54:50 nightmorph	uh huh. now, besides time crunch, transparency, etc., what percentage of council decisions are technical ones (like ebuild policy) vs. nontechnical stuff like..i dunno, community-focused things like the coc and MLs
Jul 12 13:54:54 nightmorph	robbat2: it did
Jul 12 13:55:05 kingtaco|laptop	robbat2, it did leak
Jul 12 13:55:14 kingtaco|laptop	there is zero doubt about it
Jul 12 13:55:18 kingtaco|laptop	it leaked to ciaranm
Jul 12 13:55:38 wolf31o2	nightmorph: probably 80/20... I'd guess...
Jul 12 13:55:41 Philantrop	musikc: We have a proverb here in Germany, though, that translates to something like "Why should the German oak bother if the pig rubs itself on it?". :-)
Jul 12 13:55:43 kingtaco|laptop	it's pretty obvious who did it but noone will ever know for sure
Jul 12 13:55:44 wolf31o2	most seemed to be technical
Jul 12 13:56:08 robbat2	the technical ones gather very few complaints
Jul 12 13:56:11 musikc	Philantrop: ok ya, that just makes me laugh
Jul 12 13:56:14 nightmorph	kingtaco|laptop: it leaked to more than just him, but yes
Jul 12 13:56:15 robbat2	the social ones eat up all the time
Jul 12 13:56:27 nightmorph	hmm, so the majority by far is technical?
Jul 12 13:56:35 wolf31o2	correct
Jul 12 13:56:40 Uber	supposed to be
Jul 12 13:56:41 nightmorph	hmm .... and to this point, only ebuild-type devs have ever been on it?
Jul 12 13:56:41 robbat2	by number, technical. by time involved, social.
Jul 12 13:56:44 wolf31o2	but as robin says, the social take up almost all the time
Jul 12 13:56:47 nightmorph	heh
Jul 12 13:56:59 Uber	nightmorph: no, i think swift was coucil and he's not ebuild dev
Jul 12 13:57:09 Uber	*was*
Jul 12 13:57:14 robbat2	i must go now
Jul 12 13:57:16 robbat2	byte
Jul 12 13:57:17 robbat2	bye
Jul 12 13:57:18 wolf31o2	swift was a trustee... I don't think he was council
Jul 12 13:57:19 Uber	cu
Jul 12 13:57:20 *	robbat2 sets mode -e robbat2
Jul 12 13:57:20 *	You are now known as robbat2|na
Jul 12 13:57:20 *	services. sets mode +e robbat2|na
Jul 12 13:57:27 robbat2|na	somebody please do logs+summary
Jul 12 13:57:33 Uber	ok, my memory is failing then - old age :)
Jul 12 13:58:26 nightmorph	thanks for talking this stuff over with me guys :)
Jul 12 13:58:26 wolf31o2	and yes, someone who isn't an ebuild dev could run for council, but I personally don't think they would be a good fit for the job, since they would need to be able to decide things that affect the tree... but most of it is just learning about something and making a decision
Jul 12 13:59:05 wolf31o2	so really anyone could do it... and if there were someone who isn't an ebuild dev but had lots of "gentoo" experience in general, I'd definitely consider them (again, personally)
Jul 12 13:59:06 nightmorph	wolf31o2: that is what i have been thinking about
Jul 12 13:59:42 nightmorph	decision making ability, transparency, and determination are all important, but i'm also thinking about how technical stuff is important too
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 12 14:00:19 2007

Jul 12 14:00:19 wolf31o2	ok... gotta run... meeting
Jul 12 14:00:32 wolf31o2	the technical is the largest share, but tends to take the least time
Jul 12 14:01:04 wolf31o2	it's usually a "discuss, vote, approve/deny" and on to the next topic w/ technical
Jul 12 14:02:28 nightmorph	hmm
Jul 12 14:13:29 *	Ingmar^ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Jul 12 14:13:45 *	Ingmar^ (n=ingmar@d51A487D7.access.telenet.be) has joined #gentoo-council
Jul 12 14:18:13 SpanKY	ah looks like i was a slacker today
Jul 12 14:19:22 Uber	bad SpanKY
Jul 12 14:20:22 SpanKY	had to pick up my brother's car ... forgot today was meeting :(
Jul 12 14:20:32 spb	excuses excuses
Jul 12 14:20:51 SpanKY	your momma
Jul 12 14:33:04 *	kingtaco|laptop (n=kingtaco@gentoo/developer/kingtaco) has left #gentoo-council ("Leaving")
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Jul 12 14:48:07 *	nightmorph (n=nightmor@gentoo/developer/nightmorph) has left #gentoo-council