Roll call: betelgeuse here dberkholz here dertobi123 here flameeyes here [cardoe] halcy0n here jokey here lu_zero here Dates, or nothing to add: betelgeuse Monday dberkholz Monday dertobi123 Monday flameeyes Cardoe will ask halcy0n Monday jokey Today lu_zero ??? (Having sporadic power issues) Unplanned topics ================ All the council members should nominate default proxies. New topics ========== Reactions to dev banned from freenode ------------------------------------- rane: I'd like to ask Council to discuss possible reactions to our developer being banned from Freenode without providing us with a reason. ... It would be good if Council officially protested against that ban and demanded a detailed explanation from Freenode staff. Q/C: 20:14 < Halcy0n@> Do we have a history of how many times this has happened? I believe another dev was klined after this was initially brought up. 20:14 < musikc > ive spoken with the second dev actually 20:16 < musikc > the guy said he'd done what he was told to do and was still waiting for some resolution 20:17 < musikc > i last spoke to him on the 10th Moving meetings to a location we control ---------------------------------------- rane: I want Council to consider moving their meetings somewhere where third parties can't control who in Gentoo can attend and who can't. Like our own small and created just for this purpose IRC server. Q/C: 20:26 < Cardoe > We already have a public ML where predominately a lot of the discussion takes place. Is there really any actual supression occurring because of our use of Freenode? 20:26 * jokey is still not in favour of running an irc network 20:27 < dberkholz@> Halcy0n: motivation is that when our devs get klined, it's really hard for them to work with others on irc 20:28 < dberkholz@> antarus: as i was saying earlier, freenode is a tool for us. if that tool is getting in our way, it needs to change 20:29 < Cardoe > dberkholz: the question is the tool getting in our way or hindering us. Or will devising our own tool hinder us more.. 20:30 < Halcy0n@> Cardoe: I think us having to maintain it will be more of a headache. 20:30 < Cardoe > Halcy0n: I'm in agreement with you on that. 20:30 dito 20:31 < jokey@> indeed, let's discuss this there 20:32 < Cardoe > We have other things to use manpower on, like developing a distribution. We currently have 2 freenode group contacts: fmccor and rane. Favor irc.gentoo.org alias in docs, etc --------------------------------------- rane: I want Council to consider creating and using irc.gentoo.org alias instead of irc.freenode.net in our docs, news items and so on. The alias would allow us to move out of the network more easily should we ever decide to do so. Q/C: spb brought up a good point to think about. 20:35 < spb > as people connect to irc.gentoo.org and assume that generic-sounding channel names are all about gentoo 20:35 spb: And people connect to freenode and assume gentoo-java is about generic Java 20:37 < jokey@> I'd say at least one user every 3-4 days over in #gentoo-php 20:37 jokey: Quite common on #gentoo-java too even with the warnings all over the place. Why aren't fired developers banned from the channels where they displayed this behavior? --------------------------------------------------------------- yngwin: It really baffles me that some developers are forcefully retired for anti-social behavior, but are not consequently banned from the places where they display this behavior, such as our MLs and IRC channels. What good is it to retire developers, but allow them to continue to be disruptive? I would like the Council to decide for a change in our policy on this point. Q/C: 20:44 As I said on the list (maybe too late for anyone to have noticed), since yngwin said there were're actually any devs that this applies to, is there anything to discuss? 20:45 < dberkholz@> dleverton_: i must've interpreted his response differently from you 20:45 < yngwin > i didnt say it like that, dleverton_ 20:45 < dberkholz@> what i understood was that we should ban them from the same communication channel 20:46 < dberkholz@> and allow other ones where they handled themselves differently spb commented that the three fired devs were actually banned from #gentoo-dev for quite some time. 20:51 < musikc > from a devrel perspective, we do not give voice to every dev who is retired so why should a forcibly retired dev be any different? 20:51 < tomaw > Is the council interested in the autodevoice feature or is this rambling off topic? 20:51 tomaw: As long as we stick to freenode, -1 is something that interests us 20:52 < Cardoe+> Standardize a policy for what happens to voluntarily retired devs and forcibly retired devs. 20:53 < Cardoe+> Can we actually tweak it? 20:53 < Cardoe+> the council direct devrel to come up with a proposed solution/policy 20:55 < musikc > dberkholz, your call. happy to assist by doing work or by just stating current process and devrel stance :) PMS as a draft standard of EAPI 0 --------------------------------- spb: It should be treated as a draft standard, and any deviations from it found in the gentoo tree or package managers should have a bug filed against either the deviator or PMS to resolve the differences. Alternatively, what (specific) changes are required to PMS before such a statement can be made? Q/C: The portage devs need to commit to it. How do conflicts get resolved? 20:56 < dberkholz@> we were talking about this earlier today in here <20:57 < dberkholz@> to quickly summarize, EAPI 0 and portage need to agree. there are some conflicts of opinion, and the question is how do they get resolved? 20:58 < dberkholz@> 17:24 < zmedico > dberkholz: mainly these two: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222721 http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=232990 20:58 < dberkholz@> 17:25 < zmedico > In both cases I consider something to be negligible that the pms folks do not 20:59 < Cardoe+> potentially creating a PMS editor post. 21:00 < Cardoe+> Put it in the hands of a third party 21:00 < Cardoe+> and if there's a conflict, let the council decide 21:01 < musikc > dberkholz, conflict in that some feel PMS is biased? 21:07 < spb > differences will be resolved by filing a bug, so what needs to be sorted is what sort of escalation/mediation mechanism there is We ran past the 1-hour mark, so this is pushed back to the list. It will be on the next agenda in 2 weeks if it's not resolved by then.