19:02 -!- jmbsvicetto changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: meeting: now - agenda: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/msg_f360c5b4fc50c6a3238f403475db6479.xml | Meeting chairs: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap5 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/utctolocal.html?time=1900 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/ 19:02 <@jmbsvicetto> roll-call 19:02 * Chainsaw would just like to confirm that he is present, on time and without any phone calls 19:02 <@ulm> here 19:02 <+dberkholz> . 19:03 <@jmbsvicetto> here 19:03 <@grobian> here 19:03 <@jmbsvicetto> hwoarang: ping 19:03 <@hwoarang> im here 19:04 <@jmbsvicetto> Let's wait 2 more minutes for Betelgeuse. I'll call him if he doesn't show up 19:04 <@grobian> ok 19:05 <@jmbsvicetto> any comments about the agenda? 19:05 <@grobian> agenda is ok 19:06 <@Chainsaw> It is agreeable. Let's proceed. 19:06 <@jmbsvicetto> I'm calling Betelgeuse 19:06 <@jmbsvicetto> He says he'll be joining us in a couple minutes 19:07 <@jmbsvicetto> so let's start 19:07 < _AxS_> jmbsvicetto: re agenda - review of open bugs? 19:07 <@jmbsvicetto> 2. EAPI specification in ebuilds 19:07 <@jmbsvicetto> _AxS_: true, I left that out 19:07 <@jmbsvicetto> _AxS_: we'll address that before open floor 19:07 <@jmbsvicetto> Are we ready to vote in the final PMS wording? 19:07 <@grobian> yup 19:08 <@ulm> wording is here: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/msg_e6eafd6be25794ca503e0ac9d6968cd3.xml 19:08 <+dberkholz> sounds good to me. 19:09 * Chainsaw votes yes 19:09 <@jmbsvicetto> I vote yes 19:09 <@hwoarang> sounds good 19:09 <@grobian> I vote yes 19:09 <@jmbsvicetto> hwoarang / dberkholz / ulm: your vote? 19:09 <+dberkholz> 19:08 < dberkholz+> sounds good to me. 19:10 <@hwoarang> i said it sounds good to me 19:10 <@ulm> of course yes 19:10 <@jmbsvicetto> so 6 yes votes 19:10 <+dberkholz> when you ask whether we're ready to vote without asking us to actually vote, it can be a little confusing. 19:10 <@jmbsvicetto> Shall we vote to change the status of GLEP55? 19:10 <@ulm> pushed ;) 19:10 <@grobian> jmbsvicetto: yes, let's vote 19:10 <@jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: yes 19:10 <@jmbsvicetto> So how do you vote? 19:11 <@grobian> jmbsvicetto: ask for our vote 19:11 < NeddySeagoon> change it to what ? 19:11 <@jmbsvicetto> ok, let me rephrase 19:12 <@ulm> NeddySeagoon: I have propose to change its status to rejected 19:12 <@ulm> *proposed 19:12 <@hwoarang> i agree 19:12 <@jmbsvicetto> Vote: Should we change the status of GLEP55 to rejected? 19:12 < _AxS_> NeddySeagoon: starting at 'If the EAPI ...' and continuing to '... these values are different' 19:12 <@hwoarang> jmbsvicetto: yes 19:12 <@jmbsvicetto> yes 19:12 * Chainsaw votes that GLEP55 is to be rejected, so, yes 19:12 <@ulm> yes 19:12 <+dberkholz> re-JEC-ted 19:12 <@grobian> eapi pms wording: vote yes 19:13 <@grobian> glep 55 reject: vote yes 19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> so the motion was approved with 6 yes votes 19:13 -!- Betelgeuse [~betelgeus@gentoo/developer/Betelgeuse] has joined #gentoo-council 19:13 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o Betelgeuse] by ChanServ 19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> 3. Separate /usr partition vote of last meeting 19:13 <@Betelgeuse> osrry guys 19:13 <@ulm> do we need to agree on a short sentence for that glep's status line? 19:13 <@Betelgeuse> All parking lots for my building were taken 19:14 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: we just finshed voting for point 2. yes to the pms wording and yes to reject GLEP55 19:14 <@jmbsvicetto> ulm: do you have any proposal? 19:15 <+dberkholz> my understanding was that the status line was predefined to be one of the available statuses at the bottom of the glep page. 19:15 <@ulm> "Status: The council rejected this GLEP in its 2012-05-08 meeting in favor of parsing the EAPI from the first non-blank and non-comment line of ebuilds." 19:15 <@ulm> dberkholz: usually there's a short Status section 19:16 <@ulm> see glep 49 or 50 for example 19:16 <@grobian> I can agree with ulm's status line 19:16 <@hwoarang> so do i 19:16 <+dberkholz> oh, i thought you were referring to the other status section in the header. 19:16 <+dberkholz> that's not confusing at all =P 19:16 <@jmbsvicetto> I agree with the proposal 19:17 <+dberkholz> that's fine, i don't think we need to even vote on it. 19:17 <+dberkholz> but whatever 19:17 <@jmbsvicetto> we should also add a history note about it having been rejected before 19:17 <@jmbsvicetto> but I'll leave that for the GLEP editors to address 19:17 <@jmbsvicetto> so, shall we move to point 3? 19:18 <@ulm> well, probably we don't need a formal vote on it 19:18 <@Chainsaw> Yes please. 19:18 <@grobian> yes plese 19:18 <@jmbsvicetto> Separate /usr partition vote of last meeting 19:18 <@jmbsvicetto> WilliamH / dberkholz / grobian / Chainsaw: is there anything left to address at this meeting? 19:18 <@Chainsaw> I believe sufficient understanding & agreement has been built on the mailing lists. 19:18 <@grobian> my current understanding is there there are no more questions on this topic 19:18 <+dberkholz> seems like the busybox thing has addressed the concerns i saw. 19:18 < WilliamH> It seems that agreement has been built to me also. I brought 19:19 <@Chainsaw> i.e. I much prefer "option 2" and WilliamH much prefers "option 1", but we both agree that both solutions are valid. 19:19 < WilliamH> Chainsaw: agreed, either option should work well for users now, and we have documentation for how to make initramfs if folks want to go that way. 19:20 <@jmbsvicetto> In that case, shall we move to point 4? 19:20 <@Chainsaw> Please do. 19:20 <@grobian> yes please 19:20 <@jmbsvicetto> Does anyone want to do a review of this council's term? 19:20 <@jmbsvicetto> Let me just add a quick note that next month we will have the election for the next council 19:20 <@Chainsaw> I believe we did particularly well on attendance this year. 19:20 <@grobian> NeddySeagoon: mine's here: http://dev.gentoo.org/~grobian/achievements-council-1112.txt 19:21 <@Chainsaw> With regards to slacker marks, appointing of proxies, meetings going ahead as planned, etc. 19:21 < NeddySeagoon> pass on 'lessons learned' for the new council - if any 19:21 <+dberkholz> i'd recommend that we have fewer rotating chairs, and have them do a few meetings in a row to improve efficiency. 19:21 <@ulm> certainly it helps if everyone is well prepared for the meetings 19:22 <@grobian> dberkholz: nod 19:22 <@hwoarang> when does the nomication period start? 19:22 <@ulm> which generally was the case in this council's term 19:22 < NeddySeagoon> grobian, thank you 19:22 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: HAasn't the new council usually started in July? 19:22 <@Betelgeuse> So we would still meet in June. 19:22 <@jmbsvicetto> picking chairs in advance helps getting meetings prepared 19:22 <@Chainsaw> Yes, be prepared is a great life motto. 19:22 <@hwoarang> Betelgeuse: the elections were always in june 19:22 <@Betelgeuse> hwoarang: elections != first meeting 19:22 <@hwoarang> yes we do have one more meeting 19:22 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: sure, but the election takes place next month 19:22 <+dberkholz> two things that particularly bothered me were the apparent desire for lots of bureaucratic handwaving as well as spending council times on things that weren't really our call 19:23 <@Betelgeuse> Of course it doesn't matter if we skip the monthly meeting 19:23 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, yes - June is your last meeting 19:23 <@Betelgeuse> as there will any way be a new council 19:23 <@Betelgeuse> Any way for review what I have been doing is that I have been mostly reactive and a good council member would be proactive. 19:24 <@Betelgeuse> In some discussions anyw ay 19:24 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, the new council should take over in early July. July 4th actually 19:24 <@jmbsvicetto> One thing that hit me this term was free time - the move of the hospital sucked most of my life - much more than what I was already expecting 19:24 <@Chainsaw> dberkholz: Bureaucracy is a bad thing. Can you call out the red tape so it can be cut? 19:24 <@hwoarang> yeah two months without meeting is too much i guess 19:24 <@jmbsvicetto> It also prevented me from being chair when I had planned to and led to me missing my first meeting 19:24 < _AxS_> ...so, council meeting and then vote meeting? 19:24 <+dberkholz> Chainsaw: one example that stands out in my mind is doing an official roll call after everyone on the council has already spoken since the meeting's start time 19:25 <+dberkholz> not a big time sink, but it made me want to punch a hole in the wall 19:25 <@Chainsaw> dberkholz: Yes, that could just be "I see we're all here, moving on". 19:25 < NeddySeagoon> waiting 5 minutes after there is a quorum 19:25 <@ulm> dberkholz: when was that the case? 19:25 <@Chainsaw> dberkholz: Hope it wasn't my meeting. 19:25 <@jmbsvicetto> _AxS_: the council voting isn't done through a meeting 19:25 < _AxS_> jmbsvicetto: ah. nvm 19:25 <@grobian> I like the roll-call, makes it nicely explicit 19:26 <+dberkholz> that said, if that's the biggest complaint, we don't seem to have major issues 19:26 <@jmbsvicetto> just to let you guys know, I've decided I won't run for another term and plan instead to run the next council election 19:26 <+dberkholz> i continue to believe that innovations in gentoo should be pushed by individuals, and the council should do everything we can to quickly get out of their way 19:26 <+dberkholz> with *quickly* being the key point, especially in the case of gleps 19:27 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: What? But who would place the phone calls? 19:27 <@hwoarang> yeah council is sort of a bottleneck 19:27 <@jmbsvicetto> Chainsaw: I'm sure we can find someone to do that ;) 19:27 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto-bot 19:28 <+dberkholz> i mean, we really have no excuse for the whole glep 55 issue. that's been what, like 4 years? 19:28 <@jmbsvicetto> :P 19:28 <@ulm> dberkholz: yeah, this really sucks 19:28 <@Chainsaw> dberkholz: We've said no twice now. I'm sure it'll stick. 19:28 <@Betelgeuse> I fealt like there weren't that many agenda items in general. Not necessarily a bad thing but maybe people were not submitting everything that could have been. 19:29 <@ulm> that's why I pushed it so vehemently 19:29 <@jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: iirc, it was rejected 2 times before. But if you mean the time it took to approve an alternative, then I agree 19:29 <+dberkholz> Chainsaw: i mean the problem being solved by it, not the specific implementation in the glep 19:29 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: rejeted 2 times? 19:29 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: one time was a tie 19:29 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: my memory has failed me then 19:30 <@Betelgeuse> I should have brought it for a revote quickly though 19:30 <@Betelgeuse> To get an actual opinion 19:30 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, maybe it means things were resolved among the devs - no arbitration needed 19:30 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: I don't think it was in this case 19:31 <@Betelgeuse> There's no consensus to this day either 19:31 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, in the case of GLEP 55 - thats true 19:31 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: One thing that looking back I regret is that the council didn't solve the whole python3 issue quickly 19:31 <@jmbsvicetto> I spent much more time as a devrel member on that, than as a council member. 19:32 <@grobian> jmbsvicetto: disagree 19:32 < NeddySeagoon> jmbsvicetto, how would you help another council to avoid that mistake? 19:33 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: I feel that in trying not to get involved on specific issues (at least I as a council member was trying to do that), the council didn't realize or valued the impact that had in the whole distro and community 19:34 <@hwoarang> you can't really realize that unless you are really involved in the development 19:34 <@hwoarang> i mean really *daily* development 19:35 <@hwoarang> observing a distro from the far top is not the ideal way to understand this sort of problems 19:35 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: so in my case I'd say the balance between letting issues be sorted by individual teams and trying to have a common ground in the distro / community wasn't attained in this case 19:35 < NeddySeagoon> Thats the 10 minutes on this topic ... thank you 19:36 < NeddySeagoon> unless you want to add more of course 19:36 <@jmbsvicetto> anyone has anything else left to say? 19:36 <+dberkholz> we have 9 gsoc students this year, doing all kinds of cool stuff. 19:36 <@Chainsaw> I think we did well. Vote for us. 19:37 <@hwoarang> hopefully this year we make use of the gsoc projects 19:37 < NeddySeagoon> Chainsaw, no comment as I may be an election official again 19:37 <@jmbsvicetto> Thank you Donnie and Alec for your work on GSoC 19:37 <@grobian> ok, can we do open bugs/open floor? 19:37 <@jmbsvicetto> let's move on 19:37 <@Chainsaw> Let's do bugs first then please. 19:38 <@Chainsaw> What do we have? 19:38 <@jmbsvicetto> can one of you please list the bugs? Unfortunately I don't have access to bugzilla from work 19:38 <@jmbsvicetto> (I refuse to accept a "forged" certificate) 19:38 <@ulm> bug 383467 and bug 411069 only 19:38 < willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/383467 "Council webpage lacks results for 2010 and 2011 elections"; Website www.gentoo.org, Projects; CONF; hwoarang:jmbsvicetto 19:38 <@jmbsvicetto> ok, the first one is mine 19:39 <@jmbsvicetto> as you can check on http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/council/ we already have the votes there 19:39 <@jmbsvicetto> voting results* 19:39 < _AxS_> willikins: bug 411069 is? 19:39 < willikins> _AxS_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/411069 "Portage shouldn't check $EAPI to get the EAPI"; Portage Development, Core - Ebuild Support; CONF; ciaran.mccreesh:dev-portage 19:40 <@ulm> jmbsvicetto: the "master ballot" for the last election isn't the master ballot 19:40 <@jmbsvicetto> I need to convert an html page to xml from 2005 and will try to convert the results page to something along http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/elections/trustees/2008/foundation-200802.xml 19:40 <@jmbsvicetto> ulm: thanks, I'll fix that 19:41 <@jmbsvicetto> So, if you're happy with the current result, I plan to drop http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap9 from the council page and link to the election's page instead 19:41 <@ulm> yes, please do 19:41 <@jmbsvicetto> unless there's any objection, I'll take care of that tonight 19:42 <@jmbsvicetto> !bug 411069 19:42 < willikins> jmbsvicetto: https://bugs.gentoo.org/411069 "Portage shouldn't check $EAPI to get the EAPI"; Portage Development, Core - Ebuild Support; CONF; ciaran.mccreesh:dev-portage 19:42 <@jmbsvicetto> anything left to do on this one? 19:42 * ulm doesn't think the council should be CCed on this one 19:43 < _AxS_> is this part of what agenda item #2 covered? 19:43 <@ulm> _AxS_: no, it's a different issue 19:44 <@jmbsvicetto> ulm: so should we remove ourselves from that bug? 19:44 <@ulm> I'd say so. leave it to Zac 19:45 < _AxS_> ulm: ..the decision affects it tho; the use case they present is no longer valid, since inherit can't be prior to eapi now ..? 19:45 <@ulm> as it's a very technical issue and only affects few cases 19:45 <@ulm> _AxS_: yes, part of it isn't relevant any more 19:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse / Chainsaw / grobian / hwoarang / dberkholz: any comments? 19:46 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: Don't see work for us to do. 19:46 <@grobian> I tend to think it's not a council issue at the moment 19:46 <@hwoarang> we shouldnt be there anymore 19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> ulm: please remove us from the bug then 19:47 <@ulm> done 19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> 5. Open floor 19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> Does anyone have any issues for the council to look at? 19:48 <@Betelgeuse> interesting case in that bug 19:51 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll wait 5 more minutes before closing the meeting 19:51 <@hwoarang> just to be clear. are we having a meeting next month? 19:51 <@jmbsvicetto> yes 19:52 <@hwoarang> ok 19:52 <@jmbsvicetto> hwoarang: you're the apppointed chair 19:52 <@grobian> when? 19:52 < NeddySeagoon> you should even with the election in progress 19:52 <@jmbsvicetto> Tuesday, June 12th 1900 UTC is the predefined date 19:52 <@grobian> ok 19:52 <@hwoarang> is there an ETA for the nomination/election period? 19:53 <@jmbsvicetto> hwoarang: I'll talk to Roy and other interested election officials about it and send an email to the dev ml this week 19:54 <@hwoarang> jmbsvicetto: thank you 19:54 <@grobian> meeting closed? 19:54 <@jmbsvicetto> 2 - 15 (nomination) and 17 - 30 (voting) are the likely dates 19:55 <@jmbsvicetto> yes 19:55 * jmbsvicetto closes the meeting 19:55 <@grobian> ok, thanks for chairing jmbsvicetto 19:55 -!- nelchael [~nelchael@gentoo/developer/nelchael] has quit [Quit: Backups? We doan *NEED* no steenking baX%^~,VbKx NO CARRIER] 19:55 <@hwoarang> thanks jmbsvicetto 19:55 < NeddySeagoon> jmbsvicetto, that works for me 19:55 <@Betelgeuse> thanks 19:55 <@ulm> thanks 19:55 -!- jmbsvicetto changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: next meeting: June 12th 1900 UTC | Meeting chairs: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap5 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/utctolocal.html?time=1900 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/