[20:59] gongloo boo [20:59] grobian hi! [20:59] gongloo hi! [20:59] gongloo wanted to apologize for being out of the loop longer than i had originally intended [21:00] grobian long time no see [21:00] gongloo details are on my blog, but the gist is that my server died and had to be rebuilt [21:00] j4rg0n grobian: yeah, I needed time off to get my medical school applications together [21:00] Flameeyes kito, we're expecting someone else? [21:00] gongloo not to mention that whole hurricane rita thing [21:00] grobian ah, you guys in the middle of that? [21:00] gongloo grobian: she is. i'm in the middle of job apps [21:00] j4rg0n I'm back as of a few days ago, but my time is still limited. I've got interviews all next month [21:00] grobian aha [21:01] * spb- looks in [21:01] grobian kito, do we wait a minute or five to see who jumps in? [21:01] * Flameeyes sees a lazy spb's clone [21:02] j4rg0n grobian: I'd prefer not, as it's 3PM here and I'm still missing lunch... [21:02] gongloo speaking of lunch [21:02] spb- ha [21:02] spb- i have toast next to keyboard [21:02] Flameeyes kito, still with us or the power has gone? [21:02] gongloo i'm going to go get something from the café while you guys um... discuss stuff [21:02] grobian kito, ping [21:02] gongloo i'll brb [21:02] * gongloo goes and gets himself+j4 some food [21:03] grobian hmmm, Flameeyes you take the lead here? [21:03] Flameeyes grobian, seems like kito has gone... ok starting from the order in the topic... [21:03] Flameeyes rollcall: who is still with us, who is not? [21:03] * spb- is, believe it or not [21:03] grobian ok [21:03] spb- in theory at least [21:03] grobian spb-, on what exactly? [21:04] spb- what on what ? [21:04] Flameeyes from bsd i have quite an idea of who there is [21:04] j4rg0n okay, I can give a few ] grobian at max 4 [21:04] spb- Flameeyes: looking at project pages here? [21:04] j4rg0n alexander has been a pretty big "not" since the start [21:05] Flameeyes gongloo, grobian, j4rg0:05] Flameeyes spb-, yeah project page [21:05] j4rg0n ndimiduk is also there, but busy a lot [21:05] j4rg0n he does do some stuff tho [21:05] spb- has alexander ever done anything? [21:spb- nods [21:07] Flameeyes well then the developers listed on macos page are more or less existant... pvdabeel? [21:07] j4rg0n eklipse is not active [21:07] grobian never seen him [21:0] j4rg0n i dunno if he/she's still listed [21:07] Flameeyes j4rg0n, he's not even on the project page [21:07] j4rg0n okay [21:07] Flameeyes josejx, gongloo, grobian, j4rg0n, kito, ndimiduk, pvdabeel [21:07] Flameeyes that is the project page [21:07] grobian ndimiduk is very very limited active [21:08] j4rg0n he's on the main staff page tho [21:08] j4rg0n grobian: right, but he is active somewhat [21:08] j4rg0n unlike alexander [21:08] j4rg0n grobian: also, if you give him things to do, he'll do it [21:08] Flameeyes for the gentoo-alt project page, i think the best way is to do as we do for bsd page http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/index.xml with inheritmembers [21:08] grobian josejx said himself he's not playing with his mac anymore [21:08] j4rg0n he just lacks self-direction AFAICT [21:08] j4rg0n can the future project lead get rid of the excess devs tho? [21:09] grobian Flameeyes, kito had some clear thoughts on this [21:09] Flameeyes grobian, on what? [21:09] grobian on the page [21:09] Flameeyes grobian, we already talked about the inheritmembers to clean up the devs list [21:09] spb- j4rg0n: we can talk to devrel about retiring the inactive ones [21:09] grobian Flameeyes, somethings like that and let all inherit fromgentoo-alt [21:09] kito ok, work will continue to interrupt, sorry about that [21:10] grobian kito :) [21:10] Flameeyes grobian, it's the opposite, gentoo-alt inherits from bsd and macos [21:10] kito I propse we just update the alt-project page [21:10] Flameeyes [like bsd inherits from fbsd] [21:10] kito and those who are ommitted, can be added if they really care [21:10] grobian Flameeyes, ignore my comment, kito knows [21:10] Flameeyes kito, that is point 4 anyway :P [21:10] kito devrel can handle doing the actual retiring [21:10] kito thats not our problem [21:10] Flameeyes kito, yeah right, as we did for sound [21:10] kito so, current os x devs seem to be : grobian,j4rg0n, kito, ndimiduk, gongloo [21:11] grobian ok [21:11] j4rg0n kito: correct [21:11] kito Flameeyes and bsd? [21:11] j4rg0n kito: all i'm saying is the future lead should cct devrel about our inactive devs [21:11] j4rg0n just to list them as inactive [21:11] Flameeyes kito, bsd is me, spb, ka0ttic and citizen right now [21:11] Flameeyes the project page is already updated, and so is the herd [21:11] kito ok [21:11] grobian nice [21:12] spb- angusyoung might be on the return, but probably should be left off for now [21:12] kito so right now, the alt page members should be exactly macos+bsd devs [21:12] spb- yar [21:12] Flameeyes spb-, don't think he will have the time soon, seeing how was before, but yeah he'll probably be back in the future [21:12] kito g2boojum is not active in bsd anymore correct? [21:12] Flameeyes kito, right [21:12] kito[21:12] kito next topic? [21:12] Flameeyes project lead [21:12] grobian 2)? [21:12] grobian k [21:13] * kito has changed the topic to: 2) Project Lead 3) Sub-project organization 4) Project pages 5) Roadmap 6) Portage re-write 7) ${ARCH} usage 8) ebuild naming and categorization 9) Merging patches to tree 10) Repoman checks 11) Open Floor [21:13] spb- nominations anyone? [21:13] Flameeyes now it's sure that we need a project lead ... [21:13] kito how bad is this really needed? [21:13] kito actually, I guess with the new council rules, it is a req. [21:13] Flameeyes kito, quite enough, we have no coordination between the projects right now [21:13] j4rg0n i think it's needed, you already know my opinions [21:13] spb- kito: i'm thinking it's probably worth having someone there if only for coordination etc [21:13] j4rg0n Flameeyes++ [21:13] gongloo back [21:13] kito ok [21:14] grobian Flameeyes, ok [21:14] spb- bsd and macos are doing so much of the same stuff [21:14] Flameeyes and we have quite a few common projects: catalyst and sandbox for start [21:14] kito spb- indeed [21:14] grobian spb-, how is your macos likeness? [21:14] spb- grobian: hm? [21:14] j4rg0n as long as it's not an operational type lead, i'd be happy with one lead between the two alt projects, just for coordination's sake [21:14] grobian i.e. get gentoo-alt lead [21:15] grobyou're now bsd lead, right spb- ? [21:15] spb- grobian: yar [21:15] kito I say no silly sub titles like op/strat [21:15] kito just have a lead. [21:15] Flameeyes kito++ [21:15] grobian yep, for the record [21:15] grobian like spb is lead of gentoo-alt [21:15] j4rg0n fine, i meant in terms of what the lead *does* [21:15] grobian and thus of ppc-macos as well [21:15] * ferringb notes you may need to change that down the line btw [21:15] spb- kito: sometimes the distinction is useful [21:15] ferringb addition of an operational manager... [21:16] kito ferringb the titles orr? [21:16] ferringb kito: roles [21:16] kito ok [21:16] ferringb title is just fluff [21:16] spb- whe this is one of those times i'm not sure [21:16] Flameeyes well we need a lead that cares about having the project pages upda better than pvdabeel current time :P [21:18] kito well, don't want you spread too thin [21:18] Flameeyes you're all sure of what you're doing? [21:18] j4rg0n is it that much more work tho? [21:18] grobian Flameeyes, you're quite responsive at least [21:19] j4rg0n I mean, he already kinda does most of the stuff [21:19] kito spb- thoughts? [21:19] spb- kito: on? [21:19] kito spb- Flameeyes leading [21:19] grobian that is, Flameeyes leads you, and you lead Flameeyes :p [21:19] spb- there are worse candidates [21:19] kito right now, it mostly be coordination, but if things like dfly and opensolaris come about... [21:19] spb- grobian: yeah, that could be a bit interesting [21:19] grobian spb-, that's why I asked you :D [21:20] Flameeyes kito, dfly goes under bsd anyway, it's 90% fbsd [21:20] spb- kito: dfly would come under me anyway ;p [21:20] kito ok [21:0] * ferringb notes one can also step down if it proves to much, btw. that's one of the bits about leading past leaders have missed. ;) [21:20] kito ferringb indeed [21:20] grobian good point [21:20] Flameeyes right... so we'll try that, and hope? :P [21:21] kito well, as Flameeyes is definitely the most pro-active at this point, I say its a no-brainer [21:21] gongloo lets try to concentrate on how things are _now_ rather than what may or may not come along the line in terms of choosing lead, since the lead can be re-elected/changed/whatever later on if/when said things happen [21:21] grobian kito, did someone record that? [21:21] spb- Flameeyes: you want to do it? [21:21] kito grobian record what? [21:21] j4rg0n spb-: if he decides agt it, he can always step down... [21:21] kito grobian logging the meeting? [21:21] Flameeyes spb-, well i can at least try, and we'll see what happens [21:21] spb- j4rg0n: yeah, that he can [21:21] grobian kito, that he said he would try it [21:21] Flameeyes in cas as they said, i can ask for a new meeting :P [21:22] kito hehhe [21:22] kito ok [21:22] spb- ok, does macos want a subproject lead too? [21:22] kito Flameeyes is that a yes? [21:22] Flameeyes kito, i think yes at this point [21:22] kito ok. [21:22] grobian Flameeyes, thanks [21:22] kito Flameeyes++ [21:22] kito now [21:23] kito do we want to get in to the macos fiasco now or later? [21:23] grobian ahem [21:23] spb- heh [21:23] spb- now! now! [21:23] grobian I think ts gonna take a lot of time [21:23] kito ok [21:23] kito might as well get it over with [21:23] grobian postpone it [21:23] j4rg0n i'd rather not postpone [21:23] j4rg0n that means more meetings [21:24] kito no, just later in this meeting [21:24] grobian I meant, first do the other agenda items [21:24] kito not later as in days [21:24] gongloo isn't that something pertinent only to gentoo-osx (IE doesn't belong in a gentoo-alt meeting)? not saying i don't want to discuss it, just saying we might be hijacking a meeting here [21:24] j4rg0n i may not be here later in this meeting [21:24] j4rg0n i have another meeting right after this one :/ [21:24] Flameeyes well it was point ub-project organization ... [21:24] kito yup [21:24] grobian I vote againts doing it now [21:24] * kito has changed the topic to: 3) Sub-project organization 4) Project pages 5) Roadmap 6) Portage re-write 7) ${ARCH} usage 8) ebuild naming and categorization 9) Merging patches to tree 10) Repoman checks 11) Open Floor [21:25] spb- ok, agenda point 3 [21:25] gongloo okie doke [21:25] kito hehe [21:25] * ferringb twitches at 6 [21:25] ferringb plus side, I know when to run... [21:25] grobian lol [21:25] kito hahah [21:25] gongloo let's first clarify what exactly a lead should do... [21:25] kito ok, this is going to muddy agenda items [21:26] spb- ferringb: you do realise that we will be hijacking saviour for all sorts of unholy things 26] kito but here we go... [21:26] gongloo anyone have any ideas? i obviously have a few of my own, and none of them involve telling people what to do, yet everyone seems to think they'd take commands from a lead [21:26] spb- gongloo: worth knowing, isn't it [21:26] j4rg0n spb-: aye [21:26] grobian spb-, what do you do as lead? [21:26] kito haha [21:26] spb- grobian: there are several possible answers to that ;) [21:26] Flameeyes gongloo, mainly, it should check what is being done, how is being done [21:27] kito agreed [21:27] gongloo Flameeyes: to what end? [21:27] j4rg0n but not direct what is being done? or yes? [21:27] Flameeyes grobian, he tells me that's ok to do whave in mind, lately ;P [21:27] gongloo hmmm [21:27] Flameeyes j4rg0n, depends if it's something that goes project-wise or single... [21:27] grobian Flameeyes, cool... he monitors you [21:27] spb- grobian: mainly making sure that the project devs aren't being stupid [21:28] j4rg0n spb-: in what sense? [21:28] grobian spb-, great [21:28] spb- and then talking to people like portage devs when we need strange things donoe [21:28] gongloo sounds like a very 'mommy' role [21:28] spb- done* [21:28] kito for instance, with Flameeyes as a curent alt-lead, if someone in either the macos or bsd team wants to do something global, it would need Flameeyes ok [21:28] grobian sounds good [2] ferringb spb-: you do realize I'm going to be doing unholy things with saviour myself, yes? [21:28] grobian at least someone who knows what happening overall [21:29] spb- ferringb: yep [21:29] j4rg0n that's agreeable since it affects multiple people's work [21:29] kito I would expect the same from the sub project leads [21:29] spb- grobian: needs to know what's happening overall inside and out of the project [21:29] grobian spb-, agreed [21:29] spb- ie how the stuff we're doing is going to interact with everything else [21:29] Flameeyes j4rg0n, basically a change in a side ebuild wouldn't usually require lead intervention... but if someone wants to change the way a system package is installed that is something that requires a bit of conation [21:29] j4rg0n kito: would you include your darwin efforts in the osx lead's realm? [21:29] kito j4rg0n yes [21:30] j4rg0n kito: oh [21:30] kito extremely incestous [21:30] gongloo i really think darwin should be separate (project-wise) from osx [21:30] kito or however thats spelled [21:30] spb- just not as outright evil [21:30] kito gongloo eventually yes [21:30] grobian the lead should keep up-to-date with all activities [21:30] spb- kito: incestuous? [21:30] kito spb- danke [21:30] spb- grobian: should be talking as much as doing imo [21:31] ferringb lead keeps things sane; both portage wise, and ensuring they're project isn't screwing things up tree wise [21:31] ferringb both coordination, and responsibility (imo) [21:31]rringb good enough definition? [21:31] gongloo should we have a gentoo-osx lead, i don't think global darwin-specific changes should be run by him/her, so that does apply now as opposed to eventually [21:31] kito ferringb yes [21:31] spb- ferringb: pretty much what i was thinking [21:31] j4rg0n ferringb: aye [21:32] Flameeyes ferringb, agreed [21:32] gongloo ferringb++ [21:32] grobian ferringb, agreed [21:32] * gongloo notes that there's no 'dictating' or 'ordering' explicitly involved there [21:32] ferringb gongloo: yah, it's implicit. ;) [21:32] kito gongloo there certainly could be [21:32] gongloo could be, but not explicit [21:32] kito not explicit, implicit :p [21:32] spb- the dictating comes when the devs aren't doing the rightng on their own [21:32] j4rg0n kito: I think we need to agree that there shouldn't be unless it is required by one of ferringb's points above [21:33] gongloo lets put it this way: there could be, in the _worst case_ [21:33] gongloo spb-: right [21:33] kito ok [21:33] grobian spb-, yep [21:33] spb- most of the time you should be letting things run along [21:33] * ferringb notes y'all probably should just let the lead nail down what's required/what works. [21:33] Flameeyes solving peacefully is obviously the first step, always [21:33] gongloo spb-: precisely [21:33] j4rg0n i also think that the lead can/should provsome direction to inactive devs that are inactive due to lack of self-motivation [21:33] spb- if you have to dictate stuff something's probably wrong [21:33] ferringb don't think alt has yet had a true lead, let Flameeyes figure out what's required/define the role as required (imo) [21:33] Flameeyes spb-, exactly [21:33] gongloo spb-: amen! [21:34] gongloo spb++ [21:34] j4rg0n ferringb: I wasn't referring to Flameeyes's role, I was asking about what we want out of an OSX lead, if at all [21:34] kito my understanding of the current rules, all projects need 1) a project page 2) a lead [21:34] j4rg0n kito: think we can move on to that topic? (not to rush things) [21:34] spb- (probably hence why i don't appear to do anything in bsd) ;p [21:3kito yeah, if a restaurant manager is washing dishes, hes a bad manager [21:34] Flameeyes j4rg0n, i think basically is the same thing, just restricted to a smaller project [21:34] * j4rg0n rephrases that "move on to the topic of whether we need a lead and who it should be if needed" [21:35] grobian well [21:35] grobian who should it be then? [21:35] kito well, I think its clear the subprojects all need a lead [21:35] gongloo kito: agreed [21:35] Flameeyes i think a lead that cares of osx/darwin in particular is needed, at least to check that things work as they should [21:36] kito ruh roh, electrician is here [21:36] kito I might get cut off [21:36] grobian great [21:36] j4 I think the lead also needs to have the respect of the wider dev community tho [21:36] kito Flameeyes agreed [21:36] gongloo i think that should we have a gentoo-osx lead that any darwinor, the important thing is to learn from the past errors and avoid repeating them [21:39] ferringb grobian: better question, what are the args for _not_ having an osx lead of some sort? [21:39] Flameeyes j4rg0n, respect comes with time, don't think so bad about the general dev community right now... we have our flames but at the end the problem is not so great... [21:39] grobian ferringb, I'm not against a lead per se. [21:40] grobian ferringb, I am just not comfortable with j4rg0n + gongloo as lead [21:40] kito ok, so to cut through the bullshit, the problem isn't whether we need a lead, its whos going to do it. [21:40] grobian exactly [21:40] gongloo i don't think that having a lead with which the team is uncomfortable is a good idea. [21:40] grobian but I was ifnored [21:40] spb- ok, who has nominations? [21:40] kito now, tbh, I see the macos project as dead at the moment [21:40] Flameeyes kito, would you be it? [21:41] gongloo spb-: j4 and i nominated ourselves as co-lead candidates [21:41] j4rg0n Flameeyes: I would be dead set against kito [21:41] j4rg0n nothing personal against kito [21:41] kito for macos to continue, it needs to be done from the bottom up, only this time , correctly [21:41] j4rg0n for reasons cited above [21:41] grobian kito said he doesn't want to be it [21:41] spb- what kito said [21:41] spb- current g/osx is a mess [21:41] grobian yes [21:41] j4rg0n entirely agreed [21:41] gongloon [21:41] kito ferringb had the drastic proposal of dropping the ppc-macos keyword entirely [21:41] Flameeyes so what about a co-leading of kito and one between j4rg0n and gongloo? so that we can mediate the thing? [21:41] spb- and can't have been expected to be anything else given how it started [21:42] kito and I would agree [21:42] spb- kito: take it out into an overlay until it works [21:42] Flameeyes kito, about keywords i'd say to wait 6-7 [21:42] kito 6-7? [21:42] spb- seconds [21:42] kito spb- already in the works [21:42] Flameeyes point 6 and point 7 [21:42] kito yeah [21:42] grobian yes [21:42] Flameeyes portage re-write and ${ARCH} handling [21:42] kito lets wait to cover that [21:42] j4rg0n Flameeyes: I don't think wed a lead for teams of 2 people [21:42] j4rg0n which is what we would be if we split it up like that [21:43] grobian current active base is 2, and tomorrow hopefully 4 again [21:43] Flameeyes j4rg0n, i never said to split up, i said to co-leading [21:43] kito My main opposition to j4rg0n/gongloo leading is 1) the direction 2) the co-lead concept [21:43] kito I don't want to continue the current path [21:43] ferringb *cough* [21:43] kito ignoring the inherent borkenness [21:43] j4rg0n Flameeyes: I don't think that would work... [21:43] gongloo kito: who said anything about continuing along the current path? [21:43] ferringb why not get the intended path down for all to know, then decide who will handle it? [21:44] spb- what ferringb sai1:44] * Flameeyes notes that the general path of g/osx, g/darwin, g/bsd should be decided in a single shot [21:44] kito Flameeyes agreed. [21:44] j4rg0n kito: I think it's unfair of you to say that our direction would be the current direction [21:44n: into _what_ is the point I'm making [21:45] Flameeyes grobian, the general "external" directions are the one from g/alt at the end and should be discussed later (see 5) [21:45] spb- grobian: so someone from outside osx? [21:45] j4rg0n kito: I proposed immediate fixes for what was inherently broken. I think it's important to get what's currently available semi-working before moving on to long-term goals [21:45] kito j4rg0n thats where I disagree [21:45] * gongloo doesn't buy into this 'leader from above' stuff [21:45] * j4rg0n makes a salad dressing run [21:45] kito whats currently available is broken. It can't be fixed without polutting the tree more [21:45] j4rg0n or not, line's too long [21:46] spb- kito++ [21:46] grobian kito and I agree here [21:46] j4rg0n on the other hand, I don't think we should just remove support for something once it's been released [21:46] j4rg0n it's not kind to the user base [21:46] Flameeyes j4rg0n, nobody said to remove support, afaics [21:46] gongloo kito: eorate on your 'solution' then... [21:46] ferringb j4rgon: remove support once a replacement is ready [21:46] spb- j4rg0n: if it compromises the tree then kill it [21:46] Flameeyes moving to an overlay is not "remove support" at the end [21:47] j4rg0n Flameeyes: just clarifying [21:47] spb- or at least move it elsewhere [21:47] kito gongloo my solution is what I already propsed on the ML [21:47] grobian ferringb, what is indeed a good discussion to have separately I thinkg [21:47] gongloo kito: overlay...? [21:47] kito gongloo 1) work on portage prefix support 2) overlay [21:47] kito yes [21:47] gongloo okay [21:47] Flameeyes j4rg0n, i think nobody is to remove everything without having a "second way" [21:47] gongloo i don't see that as mutually exclusive with what we currently have [21:47] ferringb grobian: question of resources [21:47] gongso that shouldn't be a problem [21:47] ferringb s:grobian:gongoloo: [21:48] j4rg0n kito: I think the team has organizational problems that need to be worked out before we can get _anything_ done [21:48] grobian j4rg0n, depends [21:48] gongloo j4rg0n: exactly. i think that we need to work out our path-that-we-take-agnostic problems in addition to the problems dependant on the path we choose to take [21:48] j4rg0n we have developers doing nothing just from lack of direction, we also have no place where we collect team-wide decisions [21:49] spb- ok, so [21:49] gongloo and i think that elections of a lead shouldn't really depend on what path we take [21:49] j4rg0n so we discuss things over and over again for lack of writing them down [21:49]ameeyes j4rg0n, that is what gentoo/alt is for at the end [21:49] spb- who wants to take on the osx project and make it work? [21:49] grobian make it work in which way? [21:49] grobian a.k.a. ferringb 's question [21:49] spb- any way necessary [21:49] j4rg0n I would vote for gongloo [21:49] spb- decide what's going to be done [21:50] spb- device who's going to do it [21:50] gongloo i don't want to nominate myself if it involves the image of lead that grobian seems to have [21:50] spb- convince everyone that this is the right idea, and change if not [21:50] gongloo (the dictator) [21:50] Flameeyes i'd say to take j4rg0n and kito (that have different views) and then see next points about general g/alt organization and then discuss in ano meeting what macos is going to do [21:50] grobian then kito has currently the best view on the whole osx stuff [21:50] gongloo i still hold myself open for the job description that j4 and i gave for a lead on the ML [21:50] gongloo (in terms of the immediate tasks at hand) [21:50] j4rg0n grobian: not the best, the best in your opinion [21:50] spb- personally i'm with kito on what osx needs in genearl [21:50] spb- general [21:50] j4rg0n grobian: please note that opinions differ [21:50] gongloo and the job description as put forth by ferringb earlier in this chat [21:51] * ferringb notes it's not a 'job description' [21:51] Flameeyes j4rg0n, that's why i'm saying to take the opinions and find a mediation ... [21:51] gongloo spb-: i am too [21:51] ferringb it's the poor schmuck who is going to get the shit, and keep things going forward [21:51] grobian j4rg0n, k, sure. but that's just my opinion [21:51] gongloo ferringb: yup. but it's something that needs to be done, unfortunately. [21:51] ferringb as I stated, figure out where 'forward' points at and consider your options. [21:51] gongloo s/job description/task list [21:51] spb- forward for g/osx points at starting over [21:52] Flameeyes let's talk another time on what g/osx should do [21:52] Flameeyes we should delineate a general roadmap for g/alt before [21:52] * ferringb agrees with Flameey[21:52] grobian ok, simple question, do kito and j4r0n want to be lead? [21:53] Flameeyes it's pointless to talk about "dropping ppc-macos keyword" when we should talk about ALL the alt keywords, not just that one, before [21:53] j4rg0n I think kito+j4rg0n lead is even more flawed than gongloo+j4rg0n lead. at least in the latter, we live together and can talk face to face to coordinate opinions [21:53] j4rg0n grobian: so to directly answer your question, no [21:53] grobian I take that as a no [21:53] * spb- is thinking that in a project like that co-leading isn't going to work anyhow [21:54] gongloo spb-: please explain... [21:54] Flameeyes j4rg0n, and i don't think that two co-leads with the same view have a sense anyway, as that would bposing a direction, but then... maybe is better moving on in the general view and THEN decide what to do with g/osx (so the lead should decide what to do based on that) [21:54] grobian j4rg0n, the face2face communication is only a bad thing [21:54] gongloo Flameeyes: what two people have the same view in this room? [21:54] gongloo lol [21:55] gongloo grobian: uh... no? how so? [21:55] j4rg0n Flameeyes: I don't mean to say I _agree_ with gongloo all or most of the time [21:55] spb- gongloo: it's one of those cases where what you're trying to do is so fscking weird and generally divisive that at some point you're going to need to come down to one person deciding where it's going to go [21:55] gongloo spb-: that's what rock paper scissors is :-P [21:55] Flameeyes let's clear up the general view then.. [21:55] j4rg0n okay, lets move on. this is getting no where [21:55] j4rg0n and i need salad dressing [21:55] j4rg0n so i'll brb [21:55] gongloo seriously, though... i haven't yet found a case where j4 and i haven't been able to agree on something. we've worked together for years [21:56] grobian gongloo, because noone else but you two can follow those discussions [21:56] Flameeyes after g/alt is organized in some way, we can talk about organizing g/osx [21:56] j4rg0n bleh. long lines suck [21:56] gongloo Flameeyes: agreed! [21:56] gongloo so, next point? [21:57] grobian kito, you're still with us somehow? [21:57] gongloo grobian: don't think so, sadly :/ [21:57] Flameeyes 4oject pages: i hope most of you seen the tech notes of g/*bsd, with practices to handle situations that are common with g/bsd projects.. but many of them are common with g/osx,g/darwin, too. and g/alt in general [21:57] j4rg0n I think he said the electrician came [21:57] gongloo grobian: he said something about cutting out [21:58] grobian gongloo, he's just busy working I guess [21:58] Flameeyes we should probably start adding content to the g/alt page with general notes about portability [21:58] j4rg0n Flameeyes: such as? [21:58] grobian cp -a [21:58] grobian like that? [21:58] Flameeyes j4rg0n, such as enewuser, that should not be called with /bin/false, cp -a as grobian said, and nls libraries handling [21:58] j4rg0n ah, agreed [21:58ongloo somehow, i think that sort of thing should actually be in the gentoo developer handbook [21:58] * ferringb <-- back in a few (phone) [21:58] j4rg0n gongloo: that is a good point... [21:59] grobian • .so.4 vs. .4.dylib [21:59] Flameeyes gongloo, agreed, but we must delinate them before, right now there's no written stuff about that [21:59] gongloo i mean... developers should have a _centralized_ collection of docs on what to do and what to avoid, etc. [21:59] Flameeyes http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/maintnotes.xml this is what we have for bsd right now [21:59] j4rg0n how about collecting them on the g/alt page and then submitting for dev handbook when we've got a reasonable list [21:59] gongloo Flameeyes: any reashat isn't already in the handbook? [21:59] Flameeyes j4rg0n, exactly what i was thinking of [21:59] j4rg0n otherwise we'll keep having to fix other people's mistakes... [22:00] Flameeyes gongloo, because they are not consistent yet [22:00] gongloo good reason [22:00] Flameeyes gongloo, before putting stuff in handbook it should be generally discussed and agreed [22:00] grobian yeah [22:00] gongloo agreed [22:00] spb- conclusion: someone write a non-linux compat section for the devmanual [22:00] Flameeyes it's useless to put things there that then goes obsoleted [22:00] j4rg0n Flameeyes: of course. I'm not sure there's much to agree on with cp -a tho :p [22:00] Flameeyes spb-, that would be great, after we collected some of that :P [22: j4rg0n brb [22:00] Flameeyes j4rg0n, well that's just a side problem :P [22:00] gongloo (she just ran off to the line -- got short for a moment) [22:01] spb- what needs collecting? "this works on {gnu,linux} and not elsewhere" [22:01] Flameeyes spb-, solutions [22:01] grobian yep [22:01] grobian maybe references to your eclass? [22:01] gongloo okay, so let's revise what spb said: [22:01] spb- Flameeyes: then put a note in saying "this is a probelm. we're working on it" [22:01] Flameeyes i can (later today) restructure the maintnotes to get it generical to gentoo/alt to have something to work on [22:01] gongloo solution: someone needs to write a compat section for the handbo] gongloo so, next topic? [22:04] Flameeyes grobian, was to you that i said to collect notes about osx, right? :P [22:04] grobian yep, I got a few collected [22:04] Flameeyes gongloo, i think we can do 5-6-7 in a row if ferringb is here [22:04] grobian recap: Flameeyes you will touch up the project pages [22:04] j4rg0n woah [22:04] Flameeyes grobian, good, you know guidexml, or need a guidexmlifier? :P [22:04] j4rg0n wait a second [22:05] j4rg0n hold up [22:05] grobian XMHELL [22:05] Flameeyes j4rg0n, yeah? [22:05] gongloo i happen to like XML [22:05] j4rg0n grobian: you're collecting notes about osx? [22:05] gongloo *ducks* [22:05] grobian j4rg0n, yeah, in my stickies [22:05] gongloo (really, i do) [22:05] Flameeyes j4rg0n, notes like "-static" doesn't work, i think [22:05] gongloo okie doke [22:05] j4rg0n oh okay [22:05] grobian j4rg0n, yeah, I actually *do* something [22:06] j4rg0n grobian: excuse me [22:06] j4rg0n grobian: you have no fscking clue what i do [22:06] gongloo grobianou're probably the best candidate for that, sicne you see the most errors out of all of this [22:06] j4rg0n so don't pretend you do [22:06] j4rg0n just because I don't spend all day on the buglist doesn't mean i don't do anything [22:06] gongloo grobian: i think that was out of line [22:06] grobian *cough* [22:06] gongloo anyways [22:06] gongloo moving along [22:06] Flameeyes little timeout for 10 minutes if you can, that i go looking for somethign to eat :P [22:07] grobian good [22:07] j4rg0n Flameeyes: I won't be here in another 20 [22:07] gongloo allright, all back in 10 mins then! [22:07] gongloo but i gotta leave in 20 [22:09] Flameeyes i'm back [22:10] grobian that was only 2 minutes [22:10] Flameeyes ok then, 5-6-7 [22:10] Flameeyes grobian, i did it fast as j4rg0n and gongloo have to go [22:10] j4rg0n gongloo went somewhere [22:10] - 5) roadmap [22:10] j4rg0n i'll give him a call if there's anything important [22:10] spb- what does that mean in context ? [22:11] grobian is ferringb yet unphoned? [22:11] j4rg0n spb-: me or "roadmap"? [22:11] Flameeyes what we want g/alt to be? a generic "portage on other arches", or "Gentoo on other arches"... the difference is quite important to select what to do... i'm for a bit of both [22:11] spb- Flameeyes: anything that's not gnu/linux [22:11] gongloo back [22:11] Flameeyes spb-, point is, something like gentoo/aix (it's actually being done) is something that goes there? [22:11] spb- yes [22:11] gongloo Flameeyes: thanks, that's considerate of you :) [22:12] Flameeyes in that case, i think we should be able to find quite a feople that would like to work on the alternate prefix thing, so that can be done in less time... without compromising quality, of course [22:12] grobian yep [22:12] spb- alternate prefix support is hard [22:12] Flameeyes gongloo, well this is the important thing at the end :) don't want to procrastinate it [22:12] spb- though i'm sure we all know this [22:12] grobian ferringb, was working with kito on it [22:12] spb- and it needs to be done properly [22:13] gongloo Flameeyes: amen [22:13] j4rg0n spb-: hard, but not complete [22:13] Flameeyes spb-, yeah it's hard, but not impossible, i'm not for a "magic" thing like pathspec, or for partial solutions [22:13] gongloo j4rg0n: lol [22:13] gongloo (i got it) [22:13] gongloo ( i'm a supernerd) [22:13] spb- np-? [22:13] Flameeyes what we need is to start something *public*, a task for gentoo/alt that would list the devs working on that [22:13] j4rg0n spb-: yes [22:14] spb- good [22:14] Flameeyes and something that people can actually see the progress of, and collaborate, and give an hand to [22:14] grobian docs! [22:14] grobian :) [22:15] gongloo one of the things j4 and I had listed as things that we would do as leads is to maintain a page listing what every member of the project is doing, more or less, at the moment [22:15] Flameeyes right we need docs, pages that tells what is actually being done... i think gentoo-alt can be considered a hub for this task [22:15] gongloo i think something like that g/alt-wide would be great [22:15] ferringb back... [22:15] gongloomeeyes: might be good to read the proposal that j4+I had sent out on -osx@ a while back [22:16] gongloo Flameeyes: i can get you a link if you like [22:16] Flameeyes gongloo, see the bsd pages how are organized right now, with the different task with even people not in the actual project when it's the case (fex chris helps with doc) [22:16] gongloo Flameeyes: will do [22:16] Flameeyes gongloo, mind sending a copy to gentoo-alt as soon as we have the ml? [22:16] gongloo Flameeyes: sure [22:17] Flameeyes ok so we must say that we don't want to limit the solutions to a completely portage-handled system nor to a only partially handled system [22:17] ferringb Flameeyes: might be joi in late, but clarify the "non completely portage-handled system" [22:17] Flameeyes i think this would be something that involves macos project in its entirely, while *bsd are completely handled [22:18] ferringb talking about secondary vs primary pkg manager? [22:18] grobian well... I think it comes close to what I would call portage on fedora core 4 personal edition [22:18] Flameeyes ferringb, no, not about secondary pkg manager [22:18] Flameeyes ports on fbsd are primary package manager, but they don't mess up the system, so the /usr/local "crazyness" [22:18] spb- alternate prefix == secondary package manager [22:18] grobian yep [22:19] Flameeyes spb-, not exactly the same at the end [22:19] gongloo spb-: correction. alternate prefix ie solution to the secondary package manager problem [22:19] spb- pretty much [22:19] spb- gongloo: as far as i'm concerned if portage is installing into an alternate prefix it's because it's the secondary package manager [22:19] ferringb portage in / prefix == secondary package manager, since it can be made to know of osx's pkg manager, but not the other way around. [22:19] gongloo yes, but the converse isn't true [22:20] gongloo what ferringb said [22:20] spb- there are possible alternative solutions [22:20] spb- but they're ugly as fuck [22:20] ferringb heh [22:20] gongloo spb-: exactly [22:20] gongloo but theyneed to be recognized as such :-P [22:20] gongloo so about this prefixing stuff [22:20] gongloo ferringb: status update? [22:20] ferringb gongloo: err... of what. saviour? eapi work? [22:20] Flameeyes ferringb, altenrate prefix [22:20] gongloo ferringb: has anything changed in the 6 weeks we haven't talked? [22:21] grobian then it's more or less writing a small paper on the possible solutions and their pro's and cons [22:21] Flameeyes grobian, yeah that would be great [22:21] gongloo hasn't that already been done? [22:21] Flameeyes gongloo, how much time ago? [22:21] ferringb what grobian said. alt prefix can be implemented in an EAPI version, although it *should* be strictly a global offset (installing to /sw fex) [22:21] gongloo (the portage as a secondary package manager thread on -dev) [22:22] gongloo Flameeyes: ummm months? [22:22] Flameeyes i think g/fbsd has contributed to a few changes in the current enviornment, re-considering the solutions now is not pointless [22:22] grobian Flameeyes, http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/27569 [22:22] gongloo grobian: thank you :) [22:22] grobian it might be condensed a bit [22:23] ferringb that thread isn't exactly perfect. [22:23] ferringb two phases to any prefix implementation (from where I sit) [22:23] ferringb global prefix swiveling. installing *everything* to /sw [22:23] grobian yuck... fink [22:23] gongloo s:/sw:/opt/gentoo:, then [22: ferringb the $HOME crap that that thread broke down into is based off of prefix swiveling, and *should* not be released alongside global prefix swiveling [22:24] ferringb $PREFIX, the actual location will be user config crap. [22:24] gongloo ferringb: completely agreed. that would _totally_ speed up the implementation of prefix swiveling in portage, no? [22:24] * ferringb notes kito being back would be a good thing. [22:24] j4rg0n we've got to go in 5 anyways... [22:24] spb- ok, i shall be disappearing shortly [22:24] ferringb gongloo: it's a hack, somewhat. originally I wanted just global slipped in, it's easier, and tests the waters [22:24] spb- anyone object ? [22:25] ferringb sliding the other shite in makes it harder to get the corsics right. [22:25] Flameeyes ok step over the prefix thing, we should be able to discuss that on gentoo-alt later in case [22:25] Flameeyes as that's an internal thing, just state it's not "abandoned" project [22:25] gongloo ferringb: okay, so we have a global static (non-configurable) prefix, then? (just trying to make sure i understand you correctly) [22:25] gongloo *nod* [22:25] spb- i'll take that as a no [22:25] * spb- steps out [22:25] ferringb gongloo: that's preferred first step. [22:25] grobian spb-, no, sorry [22:26] gongloo ferringb: agreed completely, again :) [22:26] gongloo Flameeyes: moving along, then? [22:26] Flameeyes 6 portage rewrite was mainly about thssue i think, and the modularizing of platform-dependendant things like chflags and so on... [22:26] Flameeyes ferringb, status about this? how's savior going? [22:26] j4rg0n Flameeyes: perhaps since spb just left and kito's gone, and gongloo and I need to be leaving, we can reschedule the rest? [22:26] j4rg0n or do it on -alt or something? [22:26] Flameeyes j4rg0n, that makes sense... [22:26] grobian yeah [22:27] ferringb Flameeyes: usual "do work, stall out on a point, figure out point, do work", wash rinse repeat [22:27] gongloo i'm thinking a ML is mcy... my mistake, i guess [22:29] Flameeyes well my dinner is now ready, i think we can close here then, i'll update project pages and ask lcars for ml right after :) [22:29] gongloo awesome [22:29] j4rg0n grobian: okay, I misunderstood because of the ferringb bit then [22:29] Flameeyes gongloo, it is, but many times it's broken, i've blogged about that already i think :P [22:29] gongloo Flameeyes: thanks for everything thus far. looking forward to a great gentoo-alt under your lead :) [22:30] gongloo Flameeyes: i do follow your blog, though i must have missed that [22:30] gongloo anyhow [22:30] gongloo j4 and i gotta run [22:30] grobian j4rg0n, gongloo will you reopen your thread on -osx again? [22:30] j4rg0n we will reopen it on -alt [22:30] grobian today? [22:30] gongloo as per Flameeyes' request [22:30] gongloo :) [22:30] gongloo grobian: whenever gentoo-alt@g.o gets created, sure [22:31] grobian your absense thread [22:31] gongloo (plus the time it takes us to get around t it) [22:31] gongloo there are some replies we'll need to make to the things that went on since we were gone, i think [22:31] gongloo haven't gone through it all yet [22:31] gongloo we'll get around to it soon; lots is backed up in the mail logs, asyou might imagine [22:32] grobian hmmmm [22:32] grobian fortunately yes [22:32] gongloo ? [22:32] gongloo anyhow [22:32] gongloo gotta run [22:32] gongloo take care all [22:32] grobian later [22:32] j4rg0n *out* [22:32] gongloo later